[DavidKok]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-29, 22:38, said:

6♣ gave us top board but not the optimal contract.

South should have bid 2NT, and I'm also not a fan of the 4♦. South knows that a source of tricks from North is going to be vital, and the South hand is nothing but keycards. Let partner North ask aces, they will have a near-complete picture of the 52 cards!
Also thank West for not bidding 4♥ over 2♣.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-29, 15:20, said:

Partner could be 1444, with 5 clubs he should bid 3♣/2♠

That makes zero sense to me.

In essence this makes it almost impossible to find a club fit on many normal hands, since opener can no longer support clubs below 3N, which will often be the best spot when responder is, say, 1=4=3=5 or 1=3=4=5.

Use 2N for balanced hands and 1444 and 1345 and 1435. You will not miss clubs since opener will bid 3C over 2N with 4 card club support, and often with 3 card support and concern about a red suit...say 6313 or 6133.

3D is a very unusual action. It is a reverse by responder in an already gf auction in which opener will rarely hold strong support for diamonds, since he didn’t bid 2D over 2C. So I’d expect responder to be at least 5=6 in the minors.

From responder’s point of view, what the heck was opener to bid over 3D with, say, AKxxxx xx Kx QJx? Or AJxxxx xxx KQx Qx?

Cant responder hold x x Axxxx AKxxxx?

As for responder using keycards, that breaks a fundamental rule for using keycard: never....never ask for keycards when plausible answers leave one with no idea of what the best contract might be.

How on earth can south count tricks on this nightmare of an auction?

Keycard is supposed to help one stay out of slam when the values are there but one is missing too many of the keycards and trump Queen or to allow bidding grands. Keycard is not a slam try.

1S 2C
2S 2N
4S. 4S shows a long, strong suit...otherwise 3S would be the call on, say, AJxxxxx

Now south’s spade Queen is huge, since it fills in north’s suit.

South can infer a minimum of 10 tricks opposite AKJxxx and no other high cards. Since opener opened, he definitely has more than this, so the values for slam...in spade...are there and now is an appropriate time to move towards slam, whether by bidding 4N or cuebidding. Since we have all the side aces, cuebidding won’t be productive.

I don’t think reaching 7S is likely...neither player can count 13 tricks since south might be Qx AQxx AJxx AJxx, as one example and south doesn’t know about north’s club holding. But 6S has to have play opposite virtually any hand consistent with 1S 2S 4S by opener.

Note that some might argue that North should jump to 3S over 2C....however, imo, the spade suit is borderline for that action, which I think should be reserved for those rare hands on which spades are truly solid.

[nige1]

JillyBean '6♣ gave us top board but not the optimal contract.'
++++++++++++++++++++
Hands transposed to ,make West dealer.
JillyBean did well to reach the slam.
7N seems the best single-dummy contract.
As the cards lie, it makes on a squeeze

---

[jillybean]

 DavidKok, on 2021-April-30, 02:45, said:

South should have bid 2NT, and I'm also not a fan of the 4♦. South knows that a source of tricks from North is going to be vital, and the South hand is nothing but keycards. Let partner North ask aces, they will have a near-complete picture of the 52 cards!
Also thank West for not bidding 4♥ over 2♣.

I agree that 2NT would have been the best bid, South was reluctant to bid 2NT with the stiff spade.
I'm beginning to think Ace asking is the most misused convention. players often jump to ace ask because they are afraid partner may pass any other bid.
Yes, West let us have a free run here, they could have stuck a ♥ bid in anytime.

[mycroft]

"Ace asking is a tool to avoid bad slams, not a tool to get to good ones."

Yes, that means you have to learn other tools, and more judgement to not get passed in forcing bids.

Now, Keycard-and-blast is a working strategy, especially at matchpoints; sure you get to some slams with zero quick losers and 11 tricks, but you also don't pinpoint leads and can either make those hopeless slams off an AK, or make 13 where the more scientific are only making 12.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2021-April-30, 07:30, said:

That makes zero sense to me.

And to me too now that I think about it.

 mikeh, on 2021-April-30, 07:30, said:

1S 2C
2S 2N
4S. 4S shows a long, strong suit...otherwise 3S would be the call on, say, AJxxxxx

This makes me nervous. I have partners who will jump to game in a gf auction with weak hands and I am almost certain that 4S would end the auction.
So much so that I want to say "NO jumps when we are in a GF auction". Obviously I need more discussion and agreements.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2021-April-30, 07:30, said:

Keycard is supposed to help one stay out of slam when the values are there but one is missing too many of the keycards and trump Queen or to allow bidding grands. Keycard is not a slam try.

Why is keycard so misused? Is it because players are not taught cue bidding, do those who don't play 2/1 run out of room for cue bidding? Or is it just a lack of understanding of high level bidding and vision to find the best contract?

[hrothgar]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-30, 13:26, said:

Why is keycard so misused? Is it because players are not taught cue bidding, do those who don't play 2/1 run out of room for cue bidding? Or is it just a lack of understanding of high level bidding and vision to find the best contract?

Many people prefer using simple rules even if they are less effective

[Winstonm]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-30, 13:16, said:

And to me too now that I think about it.


This makes me nervous. I have partners who will jump to game in a gf auction with weak hands and I am almost certain that 4S would end the auction.
So much so that I want to say "NO jumps when we are in a GF auction". Obviously I need more discussion and agreements.

I think you might be confusing the principle of fast arrival with “picture “ bids. Fast arrival 1s-2c-2d-2s-4s or 1h-2d-2h-4h shows a lower-end hand unsuitable for slam investigation . What I am calling a picture bid is a bid that describes a particular hand in one bid: 1s-2c-3s under my definition would be a picture bid as it shows a solid suit at least 6 long. 1h-3nt would be another if you played it as 13-15 and 3334, Note the difference- one is trying to sign off in game; the other is descriptive with no implication of how high the contract should be.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-30, 13:26, said:

Why is keycard so misused? Is it because players are not taught cue bidding, do those who don't play 2/1 run out of room for cue bidding? Or is it just a lack of understanding of high level bidding and vision to find the best contract?

Imo, the latter.

One big problem is that learning judgment in slam auctions is very difficult by oneself. Good bidding is, in most cases, a collaborative effort, where both partners share an understanding of the principles involved. If I’m playing with a non-expert, I’m very unlikely to embark upon a subtle sequence...an exception would be if I were in teaching mode and ‘winning’ the session/event was not important.

I learned the old-fashioned way: back in the day, I was initially part of a group of undergraduates playing many hours a week and, some of us, reading. Then, later, a lot of players would go to a pub after a club game, or sectional, etc. We less experienced eager players would listen to the 2-4 experts go over the hands, with us occasionally interjecting with a question.

As time went by, one or other of the experts (or at least near-experts) would offer to play a session, and then a tournament event, etc.

Then we’d discuss hands after.

These days that’s not likely to happen, and indeed pretty much didn’t happen before COVID anyway

[DavidKok]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-30, 13:26, said:

Why is keycard so misused? Is it because players are not taught cue bidding, do those who don't play 2/1 run out of room for cue bidding? Or is it just a lack of understanding of high level bidding and vision to find the best contract?

To be completely fair, I think some of this is just dull frequencies. I've been told that along with Stayman and Jacoby, Blackwood is one of the most widely played conventions in the world. Mistakes with the first two are less common, so keycards is a very natural candidate for convention that is misused most often.

My suspicions why any particular person might wrongly bid keycard are something like:

• It takes some experience (and partnership trust!) to realise the full extent of alternatives available on an auction. This ranges from fear of partner passing a forcing bid to sending the wrong message on a complicated slam-going auction. Personally I think I've improved on this a lot after my partner and I had a few auctions where we signed off in 4NT or on the 5-level (with or without keycards). This took some pressure off the slam tries, since I was familiar with the ways to sign off.
  
• I was first introduced to this concept at a bridge clinic, but the point is also excellently explained in Roy Hughes' "How to build a bidding system". A sharp but good slam typically has four requirements, and they have an order of priority. Firstly you need a trump suit, secondly you need to have the playing strength for 12 tricks, thirdly you need to not be off two (or more) keycards, and lastly you need to not be off two quick tricks in any suit. It therefore helps if your system and methods explore these in order. I find that most of the misused keycards bids skip the second requirement, where we ask if there might be sufficient values to contract for 12 or 13 tricks. Incidentally, 4NT is very often not keycards for me if the first two questions haven't been answered to satisfaction.
  
• Lastly modern systems (like 2/1, or to a much larger degree any strong club system) leave more space for strong hands, and therefore provide more opportunities to make informed calls if the board does seem to be in the slam zone. By contrast, if there is fierce preemptive competition typically all sophisticated cue bidding and keycard tools are out of the picture (maybe you have some help suit tries, and can distinguish between a strong raise with and without a control in the opponents' suit, but that's usually about it). When I was first introduced to 2/1 I was told that slam bidding begins on the two level, and this certainly doesn't hurt when you are trying to paint a complete picture of your hand. For example the auction 1♠-2♣; 2♦-2♠ is forcing to 4♠ (some partnerships may wish to have a way to get to 3NT), so you have two whole levels to tell partner about shape, extra values and controls, and that's even assuming 4 is the limit of the hands.

All of that being said, I think that when to bid keycards and when not to is not the most productive use of time, especially if you have just switched to a new bidding system. It is quite acceptable to miss the slams as long as the 3NT's and 4M's keep rolling in. Plus, knowing how to sign off in game on a GF auction also helps improve your slam bidding by negative inference.

[smerriman]

 DavidKok, on 2021-April-30, 16:04, said:

thirdly you need to not be off two (or more) keycards, and lastly you need to not be off two quick tricks in any suit. It therefore helps if your system and methods explore these in order.

Shouldn't the last two be reversed? I don't know of many methods that check for an open suit after keycards.

[DavidKok]

 smerriman, on 2021-April-30, 16:14, said:

Shouldn't the last two be reversed? I don't know of many methods that check for an open suit after keycards.

Statistically, they should not. Control bidding indeed checks for open suits before number of controls, but also explores playing strength at the same time and informs partner of shape and values so it's somewhat of a wash. But on highly scientific auctions (such as strong club, in particular relay) typically you first establish that the partnership has a sufficient total number of controls, before investigating whether all suits are covered or not. Hughes motivates this by stating that if you are off two aces you are likely to lose both (since it's a rare day you can get 12 tricks out of only 2 or 3 suits), but if you have plenty of aces and kings but are missing AK in one suit then all it takes is an uninspired lead to take 12 tricks.

[mycroft]

6 months late, but Stayman and Jacoby transfers are also massively (mis|under|wrongly)-utilised, usually by the same people who think 4NT is how you announce slam is a possibility, and 4♣ is better than 4NT because you can stop in 4M that way.

• How many know what 1NT-2red; 2M-3m is? (well except for those who know exactly what 1NT-2♦; 2♥-3♦ (emphasis in original) is - "I forgot transfers and just have diamonds again, partner").
  
• How many bid 1NT-2red; 2M-3M with 5-and-an-invite?
  
• How many bid 1NT-2red; 2M-4M, playing Texas, and can't tell you the difference between that and 1NT-4red ? Or worse yet, *can* tell you, but didn't do it anyway (and partner will save them)?
  
• Same with Stayman. What's 2M after a 2♦ response? 2NT? 3m? 3M? Are you sure you're on the same page as partner?
  
• Oh, and how do you Blackwood after Stayman if you don't find a major fit? How do you Keycard if you do? (for those who don't play "No Gerber Ever", at least)

The difference between these and Blackwood is that most of the misuses come after the initial bid is made - apart from "why Stayman with a 4333 13-count opposite a strong NT?", they know when to bid 2♣, 2♦ and 2♥; where the biggest problem with ace-asking is that yes, everyone knows how to do it, not everyone knows when not to do it. And that requires evaluation and visualization skills, and other tools to show pinpoint information, and a willingness to think that many many players are never going to get to. Especially if they only ever play with others who aren't there either.

But that doesn't stop me from repeating my mantras, hoping at least one more pair will listen:

• Blackwood is a way to stay out of bad slams, not a way to get to good ones.
  
• If you are out one keycard, always bid slam. The time to be concerned about "are we off two tricks in spades" is *before* you bid Blackwood.

The thing about that last is that if you get to slam and go down because you are off two quicks in a suit, you'll remember it next time the urge to pull out 4NT hits you. If you chicken out and stop in 5 and you *aren't* off two quicks, your partner will be just as upset, and you haven't learned anything.

[jillybean]

So true, however a number of club players do play 1NT 2C 2x 3C and 1NT 2D 2H 3D as "to play" in their minor, and so on. I imagine 1NT 2C 2x 5C and 1NT 2D 2H 5D shows a better hand and 1x 4C is always a slam try.
These players have probably played like this for years and are quite content with their results, they sometimes place and when they have a bad game blame the cards or their opponents, and they are happy! I on the other hand, are getting more and more frustrated trying to improve my game. . BBO Forums put an end to my Happy Club Bridge

[Gilithin]

 jillybean, on 2021-April-29, 15:33, said:

5♠ Yes ♣Q + ♠K

Surely a 4NT response shows this, no? Otherwise there was not much point in using Kickback. 5♠ as a response to 4♠ Kickback usually shows an even number of keycards with a void.

[jillybean]

 Gilithin, on 2021-August-05, 14:20, said:

Surely a 4NT response shows this, no? Otherwise there was not much point in using Kickback. 5♠ as a response to 4♠ Kickback usually shows an even number of keycards with a void.

We are in a club auction showing Queen of clubs and King spades - 4D was our kickback.

[Gilithin]

 jillybean, on 2021-August-05, 14:59, said:

We are in a club auction showing Queen of clubs and King spades - 4D was our kickback.

So what does 4NT over 4♠ show if not ♣Q + ♠K? The whole point of Kickback is switching the NT calls with the more expensive responses to make a more efficient structure.

[jillybean]

 Gilithin, on 2021-August-05, 15:15, said:

So what does 4NT over 4♠ show if not ♣Q + ♠K? The whole point of Kickback is switching the NT calls with the more expensive responses to make a more efficient structure.

Yes, 4NT/4S is an empty bid in our approach but for memory sake we play 5♠ as showing Q+♠K. So far it has not caused space issues, once we are asking for the queen we are not stopping below 6.

[Gilithin]

 jillybean, on 2021-August-05, 15:31, said:

Yes, 4NT/4S is an empty bid in our approach but for memory sake we play 5♠ as showing Q+♠K. So far it has not caused space issues, once we are asking for the queen we are not stopping below 6.

Well you asked for input so
1. after 2♠ have South bid 2NT. If you do not do it with this hand then when?
2. over 4♦ have West respond 5♥ to show an odd number of key cards with a ♥ void.
3. over 4♠ have West bid 4NT to show ♣Q and ♠K. If you only take one thing from this thread, using the space Kickback gives you properly will stand you in good stead on many future deals.
4. after 5♠ I assume 5NT from South would be a general grand slam try rather than to play, some SSA or the Grand Slam Force. You might have considered that but the space-eating methods earlier in the auction have certainly made things awkward.