[luke warm]

pelosi says she didn't know about the waterboarding (or at least knew very little about it)... cia says she knew what was going on... the republicans recently introduced a bill to get to the bottom of this, figuring that we can't have either high ranking house members lying about this or gov't agencies lying about high ranking house members... what do you think? i think if cia is lying about what was told to pelosi, that info should be made public...

btw, the bill was defeated

[cherdanno]

LOL

[hrothgar]

I disagree with your characterization of the motives of the Republicans. I think that your description is too charitable, by far. I consider the Republican bill a fairly transparent attempt to distract the chattering classes from the core issue at hand. Dick Cheney ordered the torture of prisoners in an unsuccessful attempting to manufacture a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

With this said and done, I would welcome a thorough examination designed to ferret out who knew what (and when). As I have mentioned in the past, I think that officials in the previous administration should be tried for war crimes. I most certainly don't think that the Pelosi and co warrant special treatment because of their political party.

[jdonn]

Why is this particular lie, if she is lying, being made into such a big deal when compared to the millions of lies all members of congress make to us every day? I just don't get it.

[hrothgar]

jdonn, on May 22 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

Why is this particular lie, if she is lying, being made into such a big deal when compared to the millions of lies all members of congress make to us every day? I just don't get it.

I assume that you are all familiar with the following

http://www.metacafe....wbacca_defense/

[kenberg]

I think that the reason that this story has some impact is that it seems pretty clear that the members of the Intelligence Committee had a solid idea of what was being done and they were satisfied, or at least they were not morally outraged, by it. They could do the country a great favor by explaining the basis for their views rather than pretending that they had no such views. They could say that they now believe they were wrong, they could say, like Dick Cheney, that they remain convinced that they were right. They cannot credibly claim that they knew nothing about it.

[inquiry]

Strange but true

It is not just Pelosi who says the CIA was less than truthful. The gist of that article (many others on internet) is:

Quote

Rep. Peter Hoekstra, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee who called Pelosi's charges against the CIA "outrageous" earlier this week, said this about the CIA just last November:

"We cannot have a community that operates outside the law and covers up what it does and lies to Congress."

Hoekstra was reacting to the 2001 downing of a plane carrying Michigan missionaries in Peru. An investigation by the Office of Inspector General found that the CIA violated the law and then lied to Congress about it.

[luke warm]

inquiry, on May 22 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

Strange but true

It is not just Pelosi who says the CIA was less than truthful. The gist of that article (many others on internet) is:

Quote

Rep. Peter Hoekstra, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee who called Pelosi's charges against the CIA "outrageous" earlier this week, said this about the CIA just last November:

"We cannot have a community that operates outside the law and covers up what it does and lies to Congress."

Hoekstra was reacting to the 2001 downing of a plane carrying Michigan missionaries in Peru. An investigation by the Office of Inspector General found that the CIA violated the law and then lied to Congress about it.

yes, i think there's little doubt that cia lies, most especially (perhaps) to those who are supposed to hold the reins

[Winstonm]

The C.I.A. can rendition anyone it wants to secret prisons around the world; it can murder, steal, and lie; and to whom is the Agency accountable?

[Winstonm]

I also have a disagreement with the way you presented the Republican's reason for introducing the bill. I am of the opinion it had nothing to do with any type of responsibility/accountability issues but everything to do with political posturing.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on May 24 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

I also have a disagreement with the way you presented the Republican's reason for introducing the bill. I am of the opinion it had nothing to do with any type of responsibility/accountability issues but everything to do with political posturing.

that's fine, everybody has an opinion and yours is as good as anybody else's... the question is, would you like to know in this particular instance?

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on May 25 2009, 02:50 AM, said:

Winstonm, on May 24 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

I also have a disagreement with the way you presented the Republican's reason for introducing the bill.  I am of the opinion it had nothing to do with any type of responsibility/accountability issues but everything to do with political posturing.

that's fine, everybody has an opinion and yours is as good as anybody else's... the question is, would you like to know in this particular instance?

Jimmy, have you stopped beating your wide yet?

A simple yes or no will suffice...

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on May 24 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

Winstonm, on May 24 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

I also have a disagreement with the way you presented the Republican's reason for introducing the bill.  I am of the opinion it had nothing to do with any type of responsibility/accountability issues but everything to do with political posturing.

that's fine, everybody has an opinion and yours is as good as anybody else's... the question is, would you like to know in this particular instance?

I completely support a total declassification of all documents relating to Gitmo, as well as all other prisons, either CIA or military, release of the latest pictures, and a justice department criminal investigation and prosecution of any wrongdoing by a member of either party as well as the CIA or the military.

I believe in the rule of law - I have made this quite clear, I believe. I could care less about political party affiliations.

[Winstonm]

On Meet the Press, Newt Gingrich was out echoing Cheney's claims with fear-mongering claims of his own that we should be afraid due to the changes made by President Obama.

This is getting ridiculous. No matter which side you are on, how can you sit still when a public "leader" makes this kind of disjointed, irrational argument?

Quote

"If you look at the behavior the last few months, if you look at the effort to open up past wounds,” said Gingrich. “… If you were a CIA employee today, and you understood there were people who wanted a truth commission, that people wanted to say to you, ‘I want to go back six, seven, eight years and I wanna put you on trial potentially … If you look at what Speaker Pelosi said, they lie to us all the time … This has hurt morale. The question is, is the most important thing to us today to find some sort of American Civil Liberties Union model of making sure that we never offend terrorists, or we’re gonna cover your back, we’re proud of you and we want you to defend America.”

And then - as all the fear spokesmen do - he quotes as fact the non-factual.

Quote

“I think people should be afraid,” said Gingrich.....If you weren’t worried about the second wave attack that was designed to take out the second largest building in Los Angeles … I think that you are out of touch with reality.”

The so-called second wave attack Gingrich referred to — an allegedly planned jumbo jet attack on the Library tower in Los Angeles (which Bush occasionally referred to as the “Liberty” tower) — has been called into doubt by intelligence officials.

Let's certainly not let truth or honesty interfere with scaring up more money for defense contractors.

[mike777]

" completely support a total declassification of all documents relating to Gitmo, as well as all other prisons, either CIA or military, release of the latest pictures, and a justice department criminal investigation and prosecution of any wrongdoing by a member of either party as well as the CIA or the military.

I believe in the rule of law - I have made this quite clear, I believe. I could care less about political party affiliations."


I am still waiting to see what rule of law the CIA does follow. How in the world is the CIA not dragged in front of the Hague?

We are told there are about 250 guys left in GITMO but there are over 600 guys at BAGHRAM. How about declassification of the killer robots the CIA uses in Pakistan. How about declassification of all the documents at both places. Lets enforce the law equally in all places, not just gitmo and selective declassification to fit some political purpose.

[mike777]

I have just read a history of the CIA and torture from the 1950's through the WAR on TERROR. Two wrongs never make a right but what the CIA has done in the last ten years is nothing compared to what the culture of the CIA is trained in. Read their 1963 and 1983 field manuels on interrogations and torture.

As to who is lying, Cheney and Bush have admitted they waterboarded. CAbinet members and station chiefs admit they waterboarded. If Congressmen and women hardly ever attend oversight meetings and when they do they basically sleepwalk through them what does that tell you about how both sides care other than for political blame purposes?

[Trinidad]

mike777, on May 25 2009, 07:34 PM, said:

I am still waiting to see what rule of law the CIA does follow. How in the world is the CIA not dragged in front of the Hague?

The US has reserved the right to not extradite any US citizens to The Hague. That is how in the world the CIA is not dragged in front of The Hague.

This means that US war criminals need to be captured by third party troops, outside the USA, after they have been indicted. What do you think the odds for that are?

Rik

[Gerben42]

Quote

The US has reserved the right to not extradite any US citizens to The Hague. That is how in the world the CIA is not dragged in front of The Hague.

I know, and that makes me sick. War criminals are war criminals, and it shouldn't matter where they are from. Also governments around the world seem to act on "don't need to know" basis. I don't think we should keep all that much a secret, only that that is really necessary to be secret, like the identity and location of our secret agents.

[luke warm]

this is what happenes if you let your guard down

[Winstonm]

The CIA is a cancer on the Republic - if it is not removed, it will destroy its host.