[jillybean]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-15, 18:40, said:

Why isn’t anyone bidding 1S as responder instead of that silly 3n. And what is the fixation with bidding 2c?

If I start 1S is will partner readily believe I have 3 card gf heart raise?
2C sets gf and allows opener to continue describing their hand, at the 2 level. You can sign off you start investigating slam at the 2 level. How can unravelling a 1H 1S auction be better?

[P_Marlowe]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-15, 18:40, said:

Why isn’t anyone bidding 1S as responder instead of that silly 3n. And what is the fixation with bidding 2c?

If you start with 1S, you will have a more complicate road to set heart as trump and establish a GF.
2C is quite often played as ... or a 3 card game force raise for openers major.

The decision which way to go is up to you, but you need to be aware, that the decision you choose,
turned out to be the wrong one, and it it could be either choice.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-July-15, 20:41, said:

If I start 1S is will partner readily believe I have 3 card gf heart raise?
2C sets gf and allows opener to continue describing their hand, at the 2 level. You can sign off you start investigating slam at the 2 level. How can unravelling a 1H 1S auction be better?

if you start with 1S, you are planning to use FSF.

[WasWinM]

 P_Marlowe, on 2025-July-16, 05:50, said:

If you start with 1S, you will have a more complicate road to set heart as trump and establish a GF.
2C is quite often played as ... or a 3 card game force raise for openers major.

The decision which way to go is up to you, but you need to be aware, that the decision you choose,
turned out to be the wrong one, and it it could be either choice.

Why do you assume hearts will be trumps? A 4-4 spade fit would usually be better and a 54 fit for sure superior. I understand your point but until more is known about partner’s hand what’s the rush?

[P_Marlowe]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-16, 06:21, said:

Why do you assume hearts will be trumps? A 4-4 spade fit would usually be better and a 54 fit for sure superior. I understand your point but until more is known about partner’s hand what’s the rush?

Setting trumps fast simplifies the auction.
There was a discussion, why someone would like to introduce spades after a 1H opening, how high the prob. of discovering a 4-4 in spade is,
and if this is worth it. Opinion was divided. Take your pick.

[Flem72]

Helps to play 1M-3N as 16-17

[mikl_plkcc]

jillybean, on 2025-July-15, 20:41, said:

If I start 1S is will partner readily believe I have 3 card gf heart raise?
2C sets gf and allows opener to continue describing their hand, at the 2 level. You can sign off you start investigating slam at the 2 level. How can unravelling a 1H 1S auction be better?

P_Marlowe, on 2025-July-16, 05:50, said:

If you start with 1S, you will have a more complicate road to set heart as trump and establish a GF.
2C is quite often played as ... or a 3 card game force raise for openers major.

The decision which way to go is up to you, but you need to be aware, that the decision you choose,
turned out to be the wrong one, and it it could be either choice.

In my (and Goren's) system, 1♥ - 1♠ - 1NT/2♣/2♦ - 3♥ is a 3-card GF ♥ raise.

[jillybean]

Charles Henry Goren was an American bridge player and writer who significantly developed and popularized the game. He was the leading American bridge personality in the 1950s and 1960s and widely known as "Mr. Bridge".

Born: March 4, 1901, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
Died: April 3, 1991 (age 90 years), Encino, Los Angeles, California, United States

[pescetom]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-July-15, 15:59, said:

All these short club methods, including short club opening, short 2/1 2♣, and short 2♣ after Forcing 1NT, solves a problem by introducing another (the inability to find a ♣ fit)

Where do you get this stuff from?
Even after 1♣-2♣ played as GF where neither has promised clubs (1♣ is 2+ and 2♣ is 0+) there is no problem whatsoever in finding a clubs fit, or deciding between the clubs fit and NT for that matter.
(Hint: if you repeat a suit naturally, you tend to have it).

[johnu]

pescetom, on 2025-July-16, 09:47, said:

Even after 1♣-2♣ played as GF where neither has promised clubs (1♣ is 2+ and 2♣ is 0+)

What system uses a 2♣ response as 0+ over 1♣? Some sort of relay system?

[P_Marlowe]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-July-15, 15:59, said:

All these short club methods, including short club opening, short 2/1 2♣, and short 2♣ after Forcing 1NT, solves a problem by introducing another (the inability to find a ♣ fit), therefore I don't want to play them with any of my regular partners.
<snip>

That is true, you solve one problem, at the cost of creating another on.

The thing is, not all problems carry the same price tag, it is up to you,
which prize tag to assign to a specific problem, this is your task / your decision.

Major suit raises focus on getting to the right major suit contract, those are king,
besides 3NT, this comes with the cost of getting to the right partial some of the time,
or getting to the right slam.

Take your pick, and if you have to pay up, do it and move on.

[P_Marlowe]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-July-16, 07:49, said:

In my (and Goren's) system, 1♥ - 1♠ - 1NT/2♣/2♦ - 3♥ is a 3-card GF ♥ raise.

Yes, works, the cost: What do you do with a 3 card limit raise for opener major.
And yes there are answer in the goren system, ... look at the answer, and you will discover the hidden
cost of this specific answer.

[pescetom]

 johnu, on 2025-July-16, 19:02, said:

What system uses a 2♣ response as 0+ over 1♣? Some sort of relay system?

Modern Italian 2/1 does. 0+ is a figurative description for the 2♣ GF response in general, in the sense that it does not promise any number of clubs: over 1♣ it is extremely unlikely to be less than 2 or 3 in practice.

[WasWinM]

 P_Marlowe, on 2025-July-16, 06:37, said:

Setting trumps fast simplifies the auction.
There was a discussion, why someone would like to introduce spades after a 1H opening, how high the prob. of discovering a 4-4 in spade is,
and if this is worth it. Opinion was divided. Take your pick.

Thanks for a reasoned and reasonable answer. It seems in this case a 5-4 spade fit was missed.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-July-16, 09:47, said:

Where do you get this stuff from?
Even after 1♣-2♣ played as GF where neither has promised clubs (1♣ is 2+ and 2♣ is 0+) there is no problem whatsoever in finding a clubs fit, or deciding between the clubs fit and NT for that matter.
(Hint: if you repeat a suit naturally, you tend to have it).

I've had opps miss a 6-4 club fit when we preempted a short club auction to 3M and neither decided to bid their clubs at the 4 level

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-July-16, 07:49, said:

In my (and Goren's) system, 1♥ - 1♠ - 1NT/2♣/2♦ - 3♥ is a 3-card GF ♥ raise.

Just make sure that you and your partner have good agreements about what your hitches show...

Otherwise, you're going to run into real problems

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-17, 12:21, said:

I've had opps miss a 6-4 club fit when we preempted a short club auction to 3M and neither decided to bid their clubs at the 4 level

If they had already forced to game that should not exist, and if not I doubt it was a disaster that moved planets from their axis

[mikl_plkcc]

 P_Marlowe, on 2025-July-17, 03:17, said:

Yes, works, the cost: What do you do with a 3 card limit raise for opener major.
And yes there are answer in the goren system, ... look at the answer, and you will discover the hidden
cost of this specific answer.

I either play the SAYC way of requiring only 3 cards for a limit raise, or use a gadget (3♦) for that. The loss of 1M - 3m, when playing 5-card major and not playing 2/1, is not a great problem as you seldom want to jump shift to the 3-level with a weak hand when opener guarantees 5 in the suit.

[mike777]

 pescetom, on 2025-July-17, 15:37, said:

If they had already forced to game that should not exist, and if not I doubt it was a disaster that moved planets from their axis

Earth's axis does change.

[akwoo]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-July-17, 16:34, said:

I either play the SAYC way of requiring only 3 cards for a limit raise, or use a gadget (3♦) for that. The loss of 1M - 3m, when playing 5-card major and not playing 2/1, is not a great problem as you seldom want to jump shift to the 3-level with a weak hand when opener guarantees 5 in the suit.

Yes - but what do you do when you have 4 spades AND a 3 card limit raise for hearts? Hide the spades? If so, we've just transferred the problem from the game forcing hands to the invitational hands.

Anyway, regarding the original hand in question, I stand by my original suggestion: 1H-1S-4C-4N-5N-6S, where 4C is a splinter and 5N shows 2 and a void.