[mikl_plkcc]

Playing in a relatively new partnership as a new member in the club, I ruined the night because of Drury twice. I know what it is but I didn't use it in the past because I didn't know why it is useful.

First misunderstanding:
I passed, partner opened 1H, I held 3=2=4=4 and bid 2C. Partner threw an alert card. He bid 2H which I thought as a standard Standard American waiting bid without a suitable rebid. We hadn't made an agreement at that point and I bid 2NT naturally, wanting to invite to 3NT. He corrected to 3H and I raised to 4H, ended up down 2 with 6-2 fit when all others were in partscore.

After that round, I asked what he meant by the 2C, and he used to play Drury. As I was not against the use of this, I agreed to play it, but then after a few rounds, I made a misbid again.

I held 1=3=4=5, 8 HCP with ♣AK and ♦JT, passed and partner opened 1S. I pulled the 2C out from the bidding box without a second thought, partner then duly threw the alert card and raised to 4S, and a double followed. We ended up down 4, -800 where others made 1NT and other partscores, one table even made 3NT (3C and 3NT are makeable by double dummy).

I am not used to such large difference of meanings for a bid at 1st or 3rd seat, especially when one of the meanings are natural.

Actually what's the point of Drury? We play Bergen raises, what's the problem of just using the Standard American delayed 3-card support at the 3rd seat if I hold 9-11 HCP 3-card support? Is Bergen raise normally used at the 3rd or 4th seat opening?

I am starting to afraid of using different conventions at different seats.

[thepossum]

It is added complexity for something easily addressed with regular raises - but like all conventions may be useful for some - and it saves bidding space and can communicate many different hand types. I like that it allows for two minimum hands to stop. But maybe they would anyway with a 2 level limit bid

Is it in Larry Cohen's list of essential conventions? It is not in the big four or his top 12. Could be in his 16. I get confused. His booklet of essential 12 has more than 12

I know Bergen people communicate in different ways

I try to play it, like I try to play Jacoby 2NT and Smolen and afew others but could be prone to error

[jillybean]

Bergen is used by a non passed hand, 4 card support with ranges something like 3♣6-9 and 3♦10-11 or 1M 3M weak 0-6 Some like to reverse these meanings.
2C Drury is used by a passed hand, 3 or 4 card support, showing what I think of as "almost opening values" 10-11

You need Drury as opposed to Bergen when playing with partners who may open light in 3rd seat, (doesn't everyone?).
If you only use Bergen, the 3 level bid is going to get you too high. Over 2♣ Drury, partner can retreat to 2M

2♣ Drury is one of the most forgotten conventions. I find it helpful to think of 2♣ as never natural.

[Stephen Tu]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-07, 17:53, said:

Actually what's the point of Drury? We play Bergen raises, what's the problem of just using the Standard American delayed 3-card support at the 3rd seat if I hold 9-11 HCP 3-card support? Is Bergen raise normally used at the 3rd or 4th seat opening?

Now, obviously it's not good to be playing Drury if you haven't clearly agreed to play it, or if either partner is unable to keep track if it's 3rd/4th seat opener or not and that it applies. If either is going to forget then don't play it.

But if you can both remember it, and apply it when it's on, the point of Drury is:
1. Responder can invite in opener's major *and stop at only 2M*. If you aren't playing Drury, your invites mostly have to get to at least 3M. Stopping at 2M is big advantage when opener has no game interest, because 3M sometimes goes down on bad breaks. Remember 3rd/4th seat openers may be light and occasionally only 4cd M opening.
2. You have much less informative auctions to the opponents, because a lot of your auctions just go p-1M-2c!-2M or p-1M-2c!-4M. Less info passed about the side suits makes you harder to defend against.

Bergen raises are usually not used opposite 3rd/4th seat because of the duplication vs Drury & the possibility of 4cd M openers. The jump shifts are played usually as either fit-showing jumps with that side suit or maybe invitational in that minor.

[smerriman]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-07, 17:53, said:

What's the problem of just using the Standard American delayed 3-card support at the 3rd seat if I hold 9-11 HCP 3-card support?

Another aspect not yet mentioned is that even in Standard American, you can't use a delayed 3-card raise as a passed hand, because any such new suit bid is non-forcing; in many cases you'll be passed and not get to find your fit at all.

[mike777]

Drury is ridiculous.

However this again goes back to hand evaluation not really a bidding system issue.

People misuse it almost always.
Then they endless debate Reverse Drury.

Just play Bergen in all seats including constructive raises.

In 2025 being a passed hand with a 3 card limit raise is close to zero.
Why, what people call a 3 card limit raise by a passed hand is really a 3 card constructive raise. Hand evaluation!!

Drury is ridiculous..

[smerriman]

mike777, on 2025-February-07, 20:49, said:

In 2025 being a passed hand with a 3 card limit raise is close to zero.

Disagree, and it's far more likely than having a natural non-forcing 2/1 as a passed hand. I can't remember the last time I wished 2♣ was natural, but remember plenty of Drury raises.

[mike777]

 smerriman, on 2025-February-07, 21:22, said:

Disagree, and it's far more likely than having a natural non-forcing 2/1 as a passed hand. I can't remember the last time I wished 2♣ was natural, but the 3 card raise comes up a lot.

We disagree

I discussed why in my post but you edited it out.

[akwoo]

Drury is useful because being able to stop at 2M with an invitational hand is useful.

Being able to stop at 2M with an invitational hand is useful because, in third seat, I will frequently open with ♠x ♥AJxxx ♦Kxx ♣xxxx. If you're inviting with something like ♠KQxx ♥xxx ♦Axxx ♣Qx, 3H is going down, and 2H is actually not so great either (but it might keep them out of 2S, which probably makes).

Yes - opening that light in 3rd seat is a definite winner, because 4th seat has an opening hand and you need to get in their way. Minus 100 is better than minus 110.

If your partnership is not opening light in 3rd seat - well Drury still has its advantages, but it's not a big deal to not play it.

[mike777]

 akwoo, on 2025-February-07, 21:36, said:

Drury is useful because being able to stop at 2M with an invitational hand is useful.

Being able to stop at 2M with an invitational hand is useful because, in third seat, I will frequently open with ♠x ♥AJxxx ♦Kxx ♣xxxx. If you're inviting with something like ♠KQxx ♥xxx ♦Axxx ♣Qx, 3H is going down, and 2H is actually not so great either (but it might keep them out of 2S, which probably makes).

Yes - opening that light in 3rd seat is a definite winner, because 4th seat has an opening hand and you need to get in their way. Minus 100 is better than minus 110.

If your partnership is not opening light in 3rd seat - well Drury still has its advantages, but it's not a big deal to not play it.

This is really a discussion about hand evaluation.

You make my point for me. Drury ridiculous
See your own example.

[smerriman]

mike777, on 2025-February-07, 21:26, said:

We disagree

I discussed why in my post but you edited it out.

The fact you may never have such a hand in your partnership may mean you don't need to play Drury. Others do have such hands, so the convention is not ridiculous, and works very well. Bergen as a passed hand, on the other hand, seems very poor. But each to their own.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2025-February-07, 21:22, said:

Disagree, and it's far more likely than having a natural non-forcing 2/1 as a passed hand. I can't remember the last time I wished 2♣ was natural, but remember plenty of Drury raises.

The case when you badly need 2♣ to be natural is when you were dealt a weak two in clubs. That is exactly as rare as being dealt a weak two in spades.

[mikl_plkcc]

akwoo, on 2025-February-07, 21:36, said:

Drury is useful because being able to stop at 2M with an invitational hand is useful.

Being able to stop at 2M with an invitational hand is useful because, in third seat, I will frequently open with ♠x ♥AJxxx ♦Kxx ♣xxxx. If you're inviting with something like ♠KQxx ♥xxx ♦Axxx ♣Qx, 3H is going down, and 2H is actually not so great either (but it might keep them out of 2S, which probably makes).

Yes - opening that light in 3rd seat is a definite winner, because 4th seat has an opening hand and you need to get in their way. Minus 100 is better than minus 110.

If your partnership is not opening light in 3rd seat - well Drury still has its advantages, but it's not a big deal to not play it.

We play IMPs and -100 vs -110 is 0 IMP. We don't care. We don't participate in partscore battle expecting to go down.

We haven't discussed our 3rd seat opening style which we ought to before next week, and what I don't want partner to open a 4-card major unless something like AKQJ in spades at the 4th seat where I can accept the lie. I don't want to see 2♠ going down in a partscore battle because we have only 7 spades, where the other side has trouble making 2♥ due to a misfit.

We have generally got good results on board when the opponents have trouble finding their fit by not competing. If they have a fit and we have a fit, we compete aggressively, but it requires us to know the EXACT number of trumps we have.

If I am at the 3rd seat, holding 9 HCP and I don't have a particular shapely hand (like 5=4=2=2), even I know the 4th seat has an opening hand, I don't want to open. I will wait to see what they do and overcall only when they have found a fit in my short suit. If they find a fit in my second long suit, great, let them go down instead.

[jdiana]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-08, 07:01, said:

We play IMPs and -100 vs -110 is 0 IMP. We don't care. We don't participate in partscore battle expecting to go down.

We haven't discussed our 3rd seat opening style which we ought to before next week, and what I don't want partner to open a 4-card major unless something like AKQJ in spades at the 4th seat where I can accept the lie. I don't want to see 2♠ going down in a partscore battle because we have only 7 spades, where the other side has trouble making 2♥ due to a misfit.

We have generally got good results on board when the opponents have trouble finding their fit by not competing. If they have a fit and we have a fit, we compete aggressively, but it requires us to know the EXACT number of trumps we have.

If I am at the 3rd seat, holding 9 HCP and I don't have a particular shapely hand (like 5=4=2=2), even I know the 4th seat has an opening hand, I don't want to open. I will wait to see what they do and overcall only when they have found a fit in my short suit. If they find a fit in my second long suit, great, let them go down instead.

It sounds like you've answered your own question (or knew the answer you wanted before you posted the (presumably rhetorical) question). You should definitely discuss third seat openings with your partner but if he shares your philosophy, then you can live without Drury and it sounds like you'd be happy with not playing it.

Saying that's it's just generally ridiculous is an overbid IMO. Gavin Wolpert has a good lesson where he argues that we should play MORE Drury by expanding it to include other types of hands (i.e., mixed and constructive raises). https://wolpertbridge.com/lessons See Reverse Drury and Passed Hand Response Structure

[thepossum]

Works well with my brain

Just been reading about 2-way Bergen Reverse Drury to confuse myself more

I can honestly say i don't I know the full convention - doesn't it have splinters and other strong bids - I guess it's the just the same basic logic and principles I rely on

[mycroft]

In my Precision partnerships, I don't play Drury because I don't open light in third except with a hand that can support a "max pass raise". We don't "need to", as we open very light to begin with. Arguably we should, but we're more likely to have to use our "after double" system than our "after pass" system...

In my other partnerships, I play Drury, because I do open aggressively after pass-pass; and in fourth seat it's still nice, even if partner "expects to go positive", to get out for 2-of-a-fit when they've both passed. Frankly, now that "the American psychic control" is legal Open Chart by an unpassed hand, I probably should play it there too.

Sure, the worst argument for Drury is the weak 2 in clubs that I couldn't open. Anybody who expects to play in p-p-1♠-p; 2♣-AP is dreaming, even accounting for the times when it's wrong; but it is a downside, I agree. Frankly that's why many people open that hand 3♣ anyway.

I do, however, refuse to play "inverted reverse 2-way Drury with the Fblthp corollary" because I do get hands that shouldn't open 2♦ but would really like to make a constructive 2♦ call, but not a primary fit, after partner opens 1M, and I don't find the extra knowledge of length et al to be more helpful than that. Many do play it (well, some 2-way, anyway) because they disagree with my judgement. They may be right.