[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2024-January-05, 06:55, said:

Yes that was discussed in a different thread, some people have had this issue on and off over the last two weeks. I would say it has been going on for years but is probably worse lately.

Sometimes your post has actually been posted, though, even if you get the error message. This is one of the reasons why you sometimes see the same poster post the same post twice or thrice.

The thread you mentioned is here.

(I suspect you are conflating separate issues, but let's discuss in that thread)

[Gilithin]

If you play Acol, it is nearly always right to bid 1♠ with 3 hearts and 4+ spades. The other time when you should generally prefer a 1♠ response with a heart fit, even 4 card support, is when the spade suit is very good, a potential source of tricks, and you have a game-forcing hand. This is because this feature is important for partner when making a decision as to whether to push on to slam.

Responding hands of 3♥ and 4♠ in 5 card major systems are a topic all on their own. There are some systems that demand a 1♠ call for these in some ranges and some that demand a raise in certain ranges, making the discussion rather system dependant. When your system offers you a choice, a good rule of thumb is to work out whether the most likely auction(s) will allows you to show the third heart if you do not support immediately. If the answer is yes, you should show the spades if they are a useful feature; if you either cannot easily show the third heart, or the spades are weak, it is generally best to raise immediately.

[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2024-January-03, 22:52, said:

I am a support with support advocate.

DavidKok, on 2024-January-04, 03:31, said:

I really prefer "support with support".

mw64ahw, on 2024-January-04, 05:13, said:

I only show the ♠ first with a weak hand and 5+♠ where my suit as trumps tends to score better, or an invitational hand with 3-card ♥ support where a double fit may be encouraging for game.

fuzzyquack, on 2024-January-04, 13:02, said:

No matter what you agree, there will be difficult hands to bid.

HardVector, on 2024-January-04, 22:46, said:

In general, the weaker you are, the sooner you should support partner's hand. So, with 6-9 pts, you should support immediately. [...] Only if you have game invitational values or better should you mention a good suit first.

helene_t, on 2024-January-05, 04:27, said:

In general it is best to show support immediately. [...] We can make an exception for strong hands with 3-card support where a slam in a different suit may be better. And we can make an exception for very weak hands, say 4-5 points that woud encourage partner too much if raising directly. So we bid as if we merely take a false preference for spades.

AL78, on 2024-January-05, 06:02, said:

I'm inclined to show support with support [...]

Gilithin, on 2024-January-05, 23:26, said:

Responding hands of 3♥ and 4♠ in 5 card major systems are a topic all on their own. There are some systems that demand a 1♠ call for these in some ranges and some that demand a raise in certain ranges, making the discussion rather system dependant. When your system offers you a choice, a good rule of thumb is to work out whether the most likely auction(s) will allows you to show the third heart if you do not support immediately. If the answer is yes, you should show the spades if they are a useful feature; if you either cannot easily show the third heart, or the spades are weak, it is generally best to raise immediately.

fuzzyquack, on 2024-January-04, 13:02, said:

There are some tricks for GF hands like 1♥-1♠/2m-3♥ as GF.

helene_t, on 2024-January-05, 04:27, said:

We can also make an exception for hands with 10-11 points and 3-card support, if we have agreed to require 4-card support for an immediate limit raise. Even if we don't have that agreement, these hands are not that difficult to bid as we can bid for example
1♥-1♠
2♦-3♥

No wonder people get confused. Best of luck with this, and personally I would not dare to ask followup questions if this is the response to an initial prompt.

[Gilithin]

DavidKok, on 2024-January-06, 04:01, said:

No wonder people get confused. Best of luck with this, and personally I would not dare to ask followup questions if this is the response to an initial prompt.

How about this more general advice then. Good bidding is about sending a picture of your hand to partner. Whenever partner has a decision to make - part-score vs game; game vs slam; hearts vs spades vs NT - the better the picture you can send, the better the resulting choices will be. So you look at the features of your hand - 2, 3 or 4 hearts 4, 5 or 6 spades; minor suit singletons or voids; suit quality; etc - and try to tell your partner about the most important of these through your choice of auction within the confines of the level limit that your hand strength defines. In this way you create a tighter hand definition and thereby make life simpler for your partner. And whenever you are certain of the final contract, you stop describing and just bid it. Differences in opinion about bidding choices are often as much about weighting the features of the hand differently as either choice having a significant theoretical or practical advantage.

[smerriman]

DavidKok, on 2024-January-06, 04:01, said:

Best of luck with this, and personally I would not dare to ask followup questions if this is the response to an initial prompt.

I don't see why. The great thing about the forum is that everyone can participate in the discussion, from absolute beginners to experts. If it were restricted to only those who have the 'right' answer, then the forum would die pretty quickly as people would be put off responding at all.. (granted, this already happens to a reasonable extent, as pescetom has noticed )

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2024-January-06, 04:01, said:

No wonder people get confused. Best of luck with this, and personally I would not dare to ask followup questions if this is the response to an initial prompt.

Test

[thepossum]

Tramticket, on 2024-January-05, 02:45, said:

---

I was pondering this very question a few days ago after this deal. There are 12 easy tricks with spades as trumps, but only 11 available with hearts as trumps.

We play four-card majors, so after West passes, North opens 1♥. I held the South cards, but could see no reason to mention the spades, in preference to supporting hearts. Every pair finished in hearts except one pair, who responded 1♠ and finished in a four spade contract - for a complete top.

You would presumably open a minor, if playing five-card majors, but South will respond 1♥ and it still seems that all roads lead to a heart contract. Does anyone have a reasonable auction to the unbeatable six spades?

1H-1S
4S

Apparently there are no right answers with Acol

[Gilithin]

thepossum, on 2024-January-06, 23:50, said:

Apparently there are no right answers with Acol

If you show new suits after a 1♥ - 2NT start, South finds out about the spade fit and has a chance of playing in the best strain. Otherwise I would expect most decent pairs to be ending up in 6♥, with the Walruses who only bid slam on a cold 33hcp feeling vindicated in game.

[Tramticket]

thepossum, on 2024-January-06, 23:50, said:

Apparently there are no right answers with Acol

This is a little unfair and a bit like saying that there are no right answers in five-card majors. Acol is an approach, not a single unified system.

It is certainly true that Acol used to include Delayed Game Raises and it wasn't considered necessary to support immediately. But for the last few decades, most Acol players have tended to include a Jacoby-type raise and support majors suits immediately.

Gilithin, on 2024-January-07, 01:22, said:

If you show new suits after a 1♥ - 2NT start, South finds out about the spade fit and has a chance of playing in the best strain. Otherwise I would expect most decent pairs to be ending up in 6♥, with the Walruses who only bid slam on a cold 33hcp feeling vindicated in game.

I don't think that it is just Walruses who would question whether the South hand is worth a game-forcing 2NT response (rather than "invitational +" that Cyberyeti plays). I held the South cards and considered 2NT, 4♥ and 3♥ as possibilities. I felt that the eight-loser hand was a shade light for 2NT and didn't like a jump to 4♥ with two aces. a 3♥ invitational raise looks right on values.

Even if you choose to respond 2NT, I think that North should show a strong balanced hand rather than a two-suiter. Your method for doing that will depend on your response structure.

[Gilithin]

Gilithin, on 2024-January-07, 01:22, said:

with the Walruses who only bid slam on a cold 33hcp feeling vindicated in game.

Tramticket, on 2024-January-07, 03:49, said:

I felt that the eight-loser hand was a shade light for 2NT

You make my point beautifully. Never forget that LTC is just a disguised point count method, and generally a poor one at that. The 2 aces and 5th trump together with ruffing features make this hand not a simple 8 loser/10hcp and stop thinking.

Tramticket, on 2024-January-07, 03:49, said:

Even if you choose to respond 2NT, I think that North should show a strong balanced hand rather than a two-suiter. Your method for doing that will depend on your response structure.

I pointed out in my previous post that Opener only shows the spades if the agreed structure is to show a side suit. That is a relatively rare agreement, and not one I use, but not unheard of.

[Tramticket]

Gilithin, on 2024-January-07, 12:30, said:

The 2 aces and 5th trump together with ruffing features make this hand not a simple 8 loser/10hcp and stop thinking.

On the other hand, the shape is unattractive (double doubleton) and unless your openings are unusually sound, you will struggle to make 10 tricks opposite many minimum openings.

[thepossum]

I just tested out an Acol bidding system lol - and I do't know if any responders would have considered trying for slam lol
The equivalent 2/1 reached 6H which correct me goes down 1 trick - or not?

The fact is I was scared to comment because I am likely to consider biiding 1S over 1H occasionally - nice hand we can show hearts next time lol