[jillybean]

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MP

With this 6-5 distribution and prime values, is there any reason not to bid 4♠?

[Cyberyeti]

Not much reason not to, partner won't have Axxx, Kxx, Kx, xxxx all that often where you miss something.

What is your style for X ? do you bid 1♠ with 4 ?

[jillybean]

I play like X denies 4 spades, but North doesn't so here x=4 spades

[TMorris]

I think I would splinter with 4 ♣. You never know.

[pescetom]

I think it's mainstream these days that X shows exactly 4 spades (with the expert alternative that one of X and 1♠ is transfer to NT). So I too would splinter 4♣, she won't venture beyond game without ♦K and ♥A.

[mikeh]

I don’t know that it’s ‘mainstream’, in expert circles, for the double of 1H to show exactly 4S. There is at least a substantial minority who play double shows 4+ spades (often 4-5 with other calls for 6+).

In any event, I don’t think it can hurt to bid 4C. Partner will play you for a bigger hand with a stiff club and 4 spades but your hand makes up in playing strength what it may lack in terms of hcp.

Over 4R by partner, we bid 4S, limiting our hand. We should reach slam opposite Axxx, the heart ace and the diamond king (provided that partner appreciates the value of those very good cards) but we may miss it opposite A/K/K.

4S makes it very difficult to reach slam, imo, and is an underbid

One possible argument is that 4C allows LHO to double with support but not a strong desire to bid 5C himself…now RHO may bid 5C over 4R. However, I think that might help us. Our 4C sets up a forcing pass.

[DavidKok]

I don't splinter outside opps' suit in competition. They have just bid hearts and clubs - no idea what 4♣ shows. Probably natural by meta-agreement. I don't know what to bid - I'll probably start with 2♥. If 2♣ had a meaning other than 'clubs' that's relevant to me.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-04, 13:33, said:

I don't splinter outside opps' suit in competition. They have just bid hearts and clubs - no idea what 4♣ shows. Probably natural by meta-agreement. I don't know what to bid - I'll probably start with 2♥. If 2♣ had a meaning other than 'clubs' that's relevant to me.

I cannot imagine ever wanting to ascribe a natural meaning to 4C. What layout do you think could exist where a natural 4C makes any sense?

I agree that one should not use unusual jumps in side suits as splinters, but here there are NO side suits, and clubs is a suit bid naturally by an opp, so I just don’t understand how anyone would think it wasn’t a splinter.

[DavidKok]

You might not need a natural 4♣ bid (although 3♣ is already a type of spade raise, so how do you bid clubs?). That being said I'm not sure splinter, i.e. "spade raise with short clubs", fits my agreements better than fitbid, i.e. "spade raise with side club values". I think it's better not to risk it.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-04, 14:56, said:

You might not need a natural 4♣ bid (although 3♣ is already a type of spade raise, so how do you bid clubs?). That being said I'm not sure splinter, i.e. "spade raise with short clubs", fits my agreements better than fitbid, i.e. "spade raise with side club values". I think it's better not to risk it.

I can’t bid clubs over the natural 2C call by my RHO and I don’t understand why anyone feels any need to do so. When was the last time anyone psyched that 2C bid?

If I had clubs, I’d pass (absent another call suiting my hand) and hope to survive

[jillybean]

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My hand

T762, 653, K, KT984

[mikeh]

I think south has a borderline call over 1H. I’d probably double, especially in a club game where everyone seems to think pass is a four letter word. Which it is, of course😀

I do think that passing is the better call.

We have the death holding in hearts, a stiff diamond and horrible spades. We’re also vulnerable. Our heart length suggests that we’re not about to be preempted and that, if we are, partner can take another bid if he has significant extras (including, as here, shape). Meanwhile we rate to be unhappy if partner bids any number of diamonds, often unhappy if he competes in spades on a minimum hand, and our hand rates to disappoint almost no matter what he does.

Opener has the shape and playing strength to bid 2S over 2C, were that to happen, and we’d raise, getting to game anyway. As it was, your partner doe#nt understand the game very well, 2S is simply silly. One that I and others here think that the north hand is too strong for 4S!

[Stephen Tu]

mikeh, on 2023-June-04, 23:37, said:

One that I and others here think that the north hand is too strong for 4S!

I don't think describing 4S as an underbid is accurate. I'd describe 4S more as inaccurate description/misbid vs 4c, rather than a strength difference. Both bids show very strong hands and force to game opposite a min negative double, and partner is allowed to go on, just one bid is showing a strong 19+ bal/semibal hand (and probably that 1 or 2 people around the table on this auction are bidding on not very much and shouldn't be taken too seriously), and the other is more accurately showing a distributional powerhouse (though this one more distributional / fewer high cards than normally expected), that would help partner evaluate better.

[mw64ahw]

4♠ looks like the spot on bid for this distributional hand over 2♣
While it may be tempting to try 4♣ your combined hcp count just isn't there assuming 1♥ is 8+ish and 2♣ is at least the same if not higher.

[AL78]

If double shows four spades and North with superb five card support, a four loser hand and a void in the opponent's suit cannot find anything other than the weakest possible way of supporting spades, you are going to be writing +200 or +230 on your scorecard quite frequently. 2♠ is a terrible underbid.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-June-04, 23:37, said:

I think south has a borderline call over 1H. I’d probably double, especially in a club game where everyone seems to think pass is a four letter word. Which it is, of course😀

I do think that passing is the better call.

I think pass is very conservative. "Mike always has his bid"
If anyone else had said this I would say they were influenced by seeing North's hand.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-June-05, 07:01, said:

I think pass is very conservative. "Mike always has his bid"
If anyone else had said this I would say they were influenced by seeing North's hand.

There are a LOT of worse things that can be said about a player than that he or she always has his or her bid.

Don’t mistake having one’s bid with being conservative. It can and does lead to aggressive action.

My partners trust my bidding which allows them to bid with confidence.

But bear in mind that I play a method that features aggressive action. If I open 1S I ‘have my values’ but they may look like KJxxx Axx xx QJx or AJxxx AQxx xx xx

If I open 1N, white, in one partnership, it may be Qxx KJx Axxx xxx

If I open 3C at favourable it may look like x Jxxx xx KJxxxx (I did that in our recent regional and kept the opps out of a cold 6S). With other partners, I’d have to pass since they won’t expect that sort of action.

My point is that whether one is an aggressive or conservative bidder should be a question of your methods more than your individual ‘style’. If you play an aggressive system, then you can bid aggressively without misleading partner….you will ‘have your values’ in context. But if your methods are inherently conservative (you need 5 hcp to respond to 1m or you play a style where invitational bids are sound and one accepts light…I play the opposite) then you shouldn’t bid ‘aggressively’ because your partner will go wrong too often. Now, I have the luxury that my regular partners are expert and reliable. When playing with non-experts, there can be short term reward from overbidding, since sometimes you compensate for your partner’s failings. Long-term that’s not a way to improve the partnership, since your partner ‘learns’ to stay conservative out of fear that you’re too aggressive, plus of course sometimes partner doesn’t have the values you’re hoping for.

Also, don’t misunderstand my point about passing. Give me xxxx xxx Kx Kxxx and I’d always double 1H. The critical difference is that, opposite a 1D opening bid, this hand is much better than is xxxx xxx K Kxxxx, since we have safety in 2D if partner rebids diamonds and Kx is better for notrump should he bid that. Iow, the 4324hand simply evaluates differently than does the 4315

[jillybean]

More to this hand

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This was a game played across 15 tables, Club (7 tables) and Online (8 tables) in NZ

North opened 1♠ in 6 of the 8 online tables. I know there are many different approaches to this game but
I simply can't fathom opening this 5 card spade suit over the 6 card diamond suit.