[jillybean]

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IMP Pairs

[DavidKok]

Yes, it does. It will be really difficult to investigate 6♦ or 6♥. I'll try by bidding 3♥, but I don't expect a clean auction. If partner rebids 3♠ or 4♦ I'm not sure what to do (well, bid 4♥, but we might miss a slam). If partner raises to 4♥ I'm worth another bid.

[thepossum]

Does 3C mean 7 or more

I would consider 4NT and deciding on heart slam. Risky against a preempt unless you have the Ace

I think I would want all the Aces

I really have no idea and would probably be happy in 4 hearts

[jillybean]

3♣ is preemptive, 6+ clubs.

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I doubled, if you bid 3♥ partner will bid 3♠

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2023-May-22, 07:31, said:

3♣ is preemptive, 6+ clubs.

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I doubled, if you bid 3♥ partner will bid 3♠

3H instead of X is a lot better, you need to start showing where you live.
3S over 3H also denies 3 hearts, in the given seq. this is not the case.
3H is also GF, the X in the given seq. ( and the 3S bid as well) does not
generate a GF seq. for most, some play X as GF.

Over 3S from partner, you have to decide, if you go low by bidding 4H, or
if you try to find a slam.
I like to play 5M as a quantitative invite, and I would think, I choosing the
bid, ..., but ask me at the table.
As it is, this is one situation, where you will feel the cost of opening any
dreck in 1st / 2nd seat, if you do, than you should go with 4H, if you play
reasonable sound openings 5H is a lot less risky, it is still not clear, if you
should risk the 5 level.

[LBengtsson]

I do not see the value of supressing a solid seven card suit here. Bidding 3♥ just seems the sensible option. If you X and the opps. raise to 4♣ and partner bids 4♠, then where do you go from there?

I know, I know bidding 3♥ does not allow partner to rebid a ♦ suit at the three level, but even if he did what would you bidding any number of ♥s after that say? Solid seven card suit? I doubt it.

I think you have reasonable play for 6♥ with many hands that partner may hold. Obviously, there are hands where slam will not make but you have have to take the reins in this auction with your good hand.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-May-22, 07:31, said:

3♣ is preemptive, 6+ clubs.

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I doubled, if you bid 3♥ partner will bid 3♠

why did you double? I think you are making life far too complicated when you ignore the obvious bid of 3H. I don't know anyone who would dream of playing NFB after a preemptive overcall....so I just don't understand why you'd waste an entire round of a crowded auction misdescribing your hand.

If you say that you want to cater to 3D...what the heck are you bidding over 3D? And what do you think it shows? You open 1D with say KQx xxx AKxxx xx Your rebid over the double is what?

Plus bidding 3H over 3D is non-forcing and who the heck knows what 4H would be? (In my most frequent partnership it would be keycard, lol). Whatever you think it means, I'd bet that partner would think it something different.

Bridge is complicated enough without overthinking simple hands.

Yes, 3H doesn't solve every problem....what do you do over 3S or 4H?

But at least it tells partner that you have gf values and at least 5 hearts. Consider that compared to double.

Put another way...imagine you were opener and saw 1D (3C) x to you....describe the range of hands partner can have. Unless you are completely detached from what most people think of as normal bridge, it will NOT include a gf hand with 7 solid hearts and a club control!

whether the 3C derails the auction is a question that cannot be answered until we know how partner responds to 3H. But this is NOT as good a hand as you may think it is, at least for slam purposes. You have a sure club loser 98% of the time (bearing in mind that 83.62% of statistics are made up), so your 5 hcp in clubs are basically the same as Kx...plus if partner has 3 or 4 clubs, there may well be a club ruff coming, and you're going to be on play most of the time (if you can reach and make 6N, then that's not an issue but it's going to be tough to count 12 winners in 6N in most auctions).

But this may have been a tough hand to bid to slam without interference...it's hardly a hand that screams 'bid a slam' opposite most opening bids (if it is, for you, you need to revise your approach to slam bidding...this is a good hand but you need to learn a lot more about partner's hand before you drive to slam.

I do differ from David here: I don't think the hand is worth another call if partner raises 3H to 4H. Btw, to me he could bid 4C as a 'good raise' without promising a club control. I think that is an important point, which comes up in all kinds of sequence...consider (3D) 3H (P). You need to be able to distinguish between hands that are just enough to warrant 4H and hands that have real extras with heart support, even with no diamond control, so 4D becomes the 'good raise' and 4H is the 'I couldn't pass' raise

[jillybean]

Yes, 3♥ is obvious, I agree with that. I thought that I would be in a difficult situation if partner raised hearts or bid 3♠ whereas the double would give partner a chance to describe their hand and give me some thinking time and space. It allows partner to bid 3♦; 3♥, an improbable but not impossible bid or a more likely 3♠ in which case I would have been better bidding 3♥, we end up in the same awkward spot, 3S but atleast I have bid my hand.

I am not bidding a slam here after 1D(3C) but I definitely have slam interest. Over a raise of 3H to 4H I am always taking another bid.
You mention that partner can bid 4C/3H with a good hand and silent as to a stopper which is fine if you have that specific agreement or are confident partner would bid that way but I don't have that level of detail in my partnerships.

How bad would partner's hand be for a simple raise to 4H? I have 17 hcp points, a self sufficient suit, Qx in partners first bid suit and a control in the opponent's suit. If there was no interference this is a hand I would make a strong jump shift, asking partner to cue, although Ideally I would like better ♦ support to make a SJS.
Where are partners values? He is going to have a distributional 12-14 with spades and diamonds.

I am keen to hear where my understanding of slam bidding is failing. Yeah, the club situation is concerning, there is a real possibility of Club Ace and a club ruff. This is why these preempts are so effective. I could take a safe route and pass a raise to 4H, it is IMPS.

mikeh, on 2023-May-22, 10:45, said:

...this is a good hand but you need to learn a lot more about partner's hand before you drive to slam.

The opponents didn't make it easy and we don't have much room to learn a lot more about partners hand, it's a gamble I am willing to take. How should I be thinking?

[jillybean]

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your bid

[P_Marlowe]

4H or 5H.

In a strong NT system opener may still hold a weak NT with 4432, even the 4th spade is not a given.
3S may well be just value / stopper showing.
In a weak NT system you could try 4D, gambling on a 5th diamond, planning to correct diamond contracts
to heart contracts.

To a certain degree, the solution may be, having a direct 4H to show a hand, that only wants to play
4H, and a deleayed 4H ( via 3H ) to show some SI. We dont play this.
In the long run it pays to stay on the conservative side of slam bidding (*), the absence of a raise by South
increases the chances, that partner has some club length, increasing the risk of a club ruff,
although this also depends a lot on the playing strength of South, a strong player may hide the club support,
if he does not fancy a 5C sac.
And as already said, knowing partners opening style helps as well in the decision making process.


(*) But than again, in the long run, we are all dead.

[DavidKok]

mikeh, on 2023-May-22, 10:45, said:

I do differ from David here: I don't think the hand is worth another call if partner raises 3H to 4H. Btw, to me he could bid 4C as a 'good raise' without promising a club control. I think that is an important point, which comes up in all kinds of sequence...consider (3D) 3H (P). You need to be able to distinguish between hands that are just enough to warrant 4H and hands that have real extras with heart support, even with no diamond control, so 4D becomes the 'good raise' and 4H is the 'I couldn't pass' raise

I do play that 1♦-(3♣)-3♥-(P); 4♣ is a good heart raise, neither promising nor denying a club control. I just think that slam might be on, and the 5-level is often safe, facing a minimum opposite. ♠Axx, ♥xx, ♦AKxxx, ♣xxx and 6♥ is coming home on a 6-2 club split (on second thoughts maybe I shouldn't assume our RHO jumped on ♣AJTxxx and out, even though I would), but the lack of a third heart and minimum HCP means I wouldn't bid 4♣ despite the prime values.

jillybean, on 2023-May-22, 14:51, said:

How bad would partner's hand be for a simple raise to 4H?

I am keen to hear where my understanding of slam bidding is failing. Yeah, the club situation is concerning, there is a real possibility of Club Ace and a club ruff. This is why these preempts are so effective. I could take a safe route and pass a raise to 4H, it is IMPS.

The problem on this hand is possibly being off multiple quick tricks. Besides the possibility of club ace and ruff there's the possibility of losing a diamond or spade trick. We need partner to have prime values in all suits to make slam good, but I'm willing to try at the 5-level (but I'm not willing to gamble on the 6-level). In fact, the 5-level might on balance already be too risky. I'm not so sure anymore, but at the table I'd have already bid again.

jillybean, on 2023-May-22, 20:27, said:

your bid

4♥.

[jillybean]

4♥ is where you play. Yes, when dummy came down I expected to lose 2 clubs.

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I'm not proud of the auction,I was derailed by the interference.

8 pairs found 6H with no doubt an auction unlike mine, 2 found 6NT, dammit.
I had some good company,

The Gerries, Dimich & Takamori,McCully & Stock, Ballantyne & Litwin and a pair who were unrecognized by the ACBL database but had played internationally for their country of origin. This pair took all the Masterpoints in C, B and some in A. Come on ACBL - get your policy for players with overseas experience sorted out!