[jillybean]

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How do you move forward here?

[LBengtsson]

In support of ♦s this hand is huge. Extra trump, ♠K probably right, ♥K very useful, first round control in ♣. I am not sure that the 2♠ bid is right here, but that is what you have used. Partner must have extras for his 3♥ bid (otherwise he would have bid 3♦, I guess.) Imo there must be play for 6♦ and partner is going to have a 5 card ♦ suit and be unbalanced on this bidding. I will just bid RCKB here, and when partner shows 2 aces (and Q♦) which surely he must have, bid 6♦.

If the opps. lead the ♠Q and we lose the first two tricks then it is a case of **** happens, but there does not seem enough points in the pack for East to overcall 1♠ at red, and for West to have the ♠ ace. If partner surprises us and shows three aces then I am not sure about the grand as we could have reverse mirror distribution such as ♠Ax ♥AQJx ♦AQxxx ♣xx where it is just about possible for East to overcall 1♠. Another case of **** happens lol

[DavidKok]

3♠, initially asking for a stopper for 3NT but a control bid when we bid on later (although it will be ambiguous to partner on 1♦-(1♠)-2♠-(P); 3♥-(P)-3♠-(P); 4♦-(P)-4♥, where the stopper ask interpretation is still compatible with the auction).

[mikeh]

In theory, 3H shows extra values since 2S should be limit or better, and hands that would reject a limit raise cannot bid beyond 3D over our 2S bid.

I’d be worried that an intermediate partner might not understand that point nor understand that it makes no sense to look for a 4-4 heart fit after we did not negative double.

Having said that, I think we do have to move towards slam because it is demoralizing for partner should we not do so and it turns out that partner made a good bid.

As for where the spade ace is: not only did east overcall but west didn’t double 2S. Again one has to bear in mind the calibre of the opps but most would double with Ax or better in spades.

As for how to move towards slam….

We could bid 3S, which is initially a try for 3N. Iirc, jb and her partners may not cue first and second round controls equally, which would be problematic for two reasons. One is that we’d be showing a card we don’t have if we bid 3S and pull an unlikely 3N (opener might have bid notrump earlier) and the second is that we’re really hoping for a 4C cuebid, which partner might not do with the king.

Again, I’m going to bid as if partner understands that he can and should cue 4C with either first or second round control and that I’m not promising the spade ace with my 3S bid.

If the bidding goes 3S 4D, I think slam has become borderline at best. xx AQJx AQxxx Qx is too good to have bid 3D over 2S yet offers no play for slam other than an improbable lead away from the club king. Indeed, I can’t think of many layouts where slam is good after 4D over our 3S…at best it’s on a finesse if partner holds QJ in clubs…a finesse that is very likely to work but QJ or QJ10 are very specific and thus unlikely holdings.

We don’t know the form of scoring…imo all bidding problems should specify whether it’s imps or mps. At imps I’m content to play 5D making 5 rather than 3N making 4 if that’s the price of trying for a slam that we may be able to bid and make, but at mps 5D will often be a poor contract even when it makes. xx AQJx AQxxx Qx is making a lot of tricks in 3N and we’re not getting there if I don’t bid it now.

On balance, I’m moving towards slam. If partner should bid 4C but doesn’t (over my 3S) then we have a teaching moment.

I’m not sure what to do over 4D by partner, since it should deny a club control as well as denying the spade ace (he should bid 3N with most hands holding the spade ace and no club control, since our 3S bid is initially only a try for the right game and is not a slam try until we do something more). I think the right bid is 5D. 4H should confirm a club control in our hand, since opener denied one and we’re still trying for slam but I go back to having trouble figuring out how we should be in slam when he has no club control himself. With either one of my partners, I’d bid 5D.

[jillybean]

Let's continue the auction with a reliable partner.

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It was IMPs, this is a hand I was kibitzing so for me, MP is more relevant.

LBengtsson, on 2023-May-24, 22:08, said:

I will just bid RCKB here, and when partner shows 2 aces (and Q♦) which surely he must have, bid 6♦.

This route is much more comfortable, partner shouldn't mistake 4NT but this is why I'm asking these questions.

[LBengtsson]

jillybean, on 2023-May-25, 08:10, said:

Let's continue the auction with a reliable partner.

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It was IMPs, this is a hand I was kibitzing so for me, MP is more relevant.

This route is much more comfortable, partner shouldn't mistake 4NT but this is why I'm asking these questions.

4♥ must show a control in ♥ and slam interest imo. If you had 4♥4♦ and game values, you would have bid X on the first round, not 2♠. 4♦ would be forcing also as both hands have shown extras with their cuebids, but you are telling partner nothing doing this so 4♥ looks a better bid.

[jillybean]

LBengtsson, on 2023-May-25, 14:19, said:

4♥ must show a control in ♥ and slam interest imo. If you had 4♥4♦ and game values, you would have bid X on the first round, not 2♠. 4♦ would be forcing also as both hands have shown extras with their cuebids, but you are telling partner nothing doing this so 4♥ looks a better bid.

By bidding 4♥ do we deny a ♦ control? Do we at some stage need to show support for ♦?

[smerriman]

You've already shown support for diamonds by bidding 2♠, and they were agreed as trumps when partner bid 4♣. Returning to the trump suit in a control bidding sequence doesn't show a control in trumps, just that you have nothing further you want to show at that point.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2023-May-25, 19:36, said:

Returning to the trump suit in a control bidding sequence doesn't show a control in trumps, just that you have nothing further you want to show at that point.

More in general, it can mean a whole range of things, including (at least):
- I don't have controls I can show below this level, but it's clear you should continue
- I don't have controls I can show below this level, but it's clear you should continue if you have X
- I don't have controls I can show below this level, up to you to decide if we continue
- signoff, we don't have the necessary controls
- (below game) I want to skip a show for some reason, but it's still forcing and request control-bidding
Partner has to figure out what is going on, based on the previous bids.

Here you might bid 4D rather than 4H if you prefer that it is partner who will get the chance to bid 4NT after 4S (whatever 4NT inline means in your partnership: for us it would be Turbo).

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2023-May-25, 19:36, said:

You've already shown support for diamonds by bidding 2♠, and they were agreed as trumps when partner bid 4♣. Returning to the trump suit in a control bidding sequence doesn't show a control in trumps, just that you have nothing further you want to show at that point.

This is where we are at a bit of an impasse and we can't agree that 2♠ set ♦ as trump. What does partner do with a 3334 hand with no spade stopper?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-May-28, 17:47, said:

This is where we are at a bit of an impasse and we can't agree that 2♠ set ♦ as trump. What does partner do with a 3334 hand with no spade stopper?

This may sound strange to non-experts and even to some experts, but there has been a trend away from having a double of 1S guarantee 4+ hearts. It still ‘shows’ 4 hearts but doesn’t guarantee it. Yes, it can lead to awkward auctions.

An older but still valid approach is to say the magic word, which is ‘pass’, followed, should partner reopen, by a cuebid. This is not something I’d ever suggest with a full opener, since you will often miss 3N when partner is looking at a balanced min with spade cards.

Finally, one can bid 2C, showing 5+, and hope to survive

Obviously none of these are ideal, but neither is bidding 2S on such hands.

Btw, a similar problem can arise after 1m (1H) which is why many pairs play that double shows 4+ spades and 1S denies spades, or a stopper, or a biddable suit. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of such a cheap bid after a 1S overcall.

[DavidKok]

For what it's worth I don't think 2♠ sets trumps, though our followups (in particular pulling 3NT) do.