[jillybean]

3♥ was not a minimum

[TylerE]

jillybean, on 2023-March-20, 13:52, said:

So doesn't 2NT tell partner you have this hand?

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Ok, now I do whatever my art GF is. If you don’t have an art GF here… fix that.

[jillybean]

TylerE, on 2023-March-20, 15:18, said:

Ok, now I do whatever my art GF is. If you don’t have an art GF here… fix that.

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[DavidKok]

jillybean, on 2023-March-20, 14:52, said:

3♥ was not a minimum

Good point. I still like saving a step with my 5♥ ask, but it's all kind of moot. We are contracting for 13 tricks, if we can find partner's queen of spades (and I don't think we can) I want to be in 7NT, if not I want to be in 7♥. Responding 6♠ to partner's king ask should ask for a third round spade control, but my agreements are not on solid ground here since our ask is above the trump suit at the 6-level.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-20, 15:36, said:

Good point. I still like saving a step with my 5♥ ask, but it's all kind of moot. We are contracting for 13 tricks, if we can find partner's queen of spades (and I don't think we can) I want to be in 7NT, if not I want to be in 7♥. Responding 6♠ to partner's king ask should ask for a third round spade control, but my agreements are not on solid ground here since our ask is above the trump suit at the 6-level.

6♠DSIP sounds good

[mikeh]

TylerE, on 2023-March-20, 15:18, said:

Ok, now I do whatever my art GF is. If you don’t have an art GF here… fix that.

I just don’t understand this

Once partner opened 1H, all we want to know is how many keycards he has.

Indeed, an immediate 4N makes sense. When using keycard, a direct 4N is or should be simple Blackwood….were our hearts AQxxx we’d have to set trump first.

Using Jacoby will sometimes help, since even simple jacoby responses allow us to identify spade shortness before we launch into keycard and reasonably sophisticated methods allow for size ask as well as shortness ask.

So we may as well use jacoby, but then keycard. I have zero idea of what you meant by saying this is a hand for telling, not asking. Now, we’re we 5=6=1=1, I’d understand….xxx in spades would be a very bad holding so we might want to show spades and find out if partner can support the suit, but that’s an entirely different hand. If you think AKJxx KQxxxx x x is close to AKJxxx KQxxx x x, in terms of how one plans an auction after partner opens 1H, you have a lot to learn.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-March-20, 16:39, said:

Indeed, an immediate 4N makes sense. When using keycard, a direct 4N is or should be simple Blackwood….were our hearts AQxxx we’d have to set trump first.

This is a little twist that we don't use. RKC is always for the agreed suit or last bid suit but that's going back to the days when I couldn't open 1nt with 2 doubletons.
I understand when you use it, I'm still pondering why.

edit: Is this because with this hand, or a different hand, ie slam interest with a self sufficient suit or a hand probing in NT, you may only need an Ace ask and first setting trump or leaking unnecessary information is a distraction?

[the hog]

"My partners always have ♠xxx, ♥xxx, ♦xxx, ♣KQTx on this auction."

My partners would NEVER hold this hand. As I play a semi forcing NT response, this hand clearly fits into that category.
I would bid 3♦ Kathryn, and then 4♥ over 3♥.Also you are quite correct, 2H is far better than the 1♠ response.

[the hog]

On your 6511 hand I am not messing about. I would simply bid 4NT over 1H and then set the contract.

[the hog]

"I just don't understand this

Once partner opened 1H, all we want to know is how many keycards he has."Exactly! Why futz about? Just bid 4NT

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-March-20, 21:07, said:

This is a little twist that we don't use. RKC is always for the agreed suit or last bid suit but that's going back to the days when I couldn't open 1nt with 2 doubletons.
I understand when you use it, I'm still pondering why.

edit: Is this because with this hand, or a different hand, ie slam interest with a self sufficient suit or a hand probing in NT, you may only need an Ace ask and first setting trump or leaking unnecessary information is a distraction?

It’s so rare that I don’t recall ever doing it. I’m sure I have but it would have been many years ago.

However, it’s pretty standard. Every good player I’ve had any serious system discussion, where this comes up, knows it

As for when you use it, it’s when you have your own very long, strong suit and, typically, a stiff in partner’s suit. You need the ace, not the king. Keycard treats the two as equivalent, which is sensible when you intend to play that suit as trump or need to know whether that suit can be established or run. I’ll give you a silly example to make the point: partner opens 1H and you hold AKQJxxxxx x A KQ

You don’t give a damn about the heart king and partner is never supporting spades, plus you don’t care about his spades. All you care about is how many aces he has. You have 11 tricks in your own hand so no answer to 4N can embarrass you. More to the point, the heart king is completely irrelevant. So bid 4N.

There is NEVER any reason to create confusion. If you need keycards, then set opener’s suit as trump before asking. In your example, had responder’s hearts been AQxxx rather than KQxxx he has to set trump because the heart king is a critical card. But with his actual hand, all he needs are aces and an immediate 4N gets the job done.

Also, and definitely possible given our shape, good players strain to interfere over jacoby. For example, if I were at favourable vulnerability I’d happily bid 3D after (1H) P (2N) on KQJ10x and nothing else….I’d really hate to see the auction reach 5m before I got to ask for aces!

Bridge can be complicated, and I love the nuances of the game. But many non-experts make the game far more complicated than it needs to be. Here, responder learned J2N so felt he had to use it. We had a poster claim that the best start was 1S and then use some artificial gf over a 1N rebid

This is perhaps the simplest hand posted here in years, yet we see everyone trying to make it complicated.

[the hog]

Just another thought onKxAKxxxxAKxxx
Mats Nilsland wrote a series of interesting articles on Major suit raises on Bridgewinners.One comment he made was that he does not play trial bids as they give away too much information to the opponents.A new suit after a raise is a slam try in that suit, so 1H 2H 3D here is a slam try in Ds. That would seem to solve all your problems. If you have a trial bid, just bid game and try to make it.

[jillybean]

the hog, on 2023-March-20, 23:10, said:

"I just don't understand this

Once partner opened 1H, all we want to know is how many keycards he has."Exactly! Why futz about? Just bid 4NT

Futz, what a super Yiddish word

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[Cyberyeti]

I would have started with a 2♠ SJS because it would make it easier for me to find out about ♠Q in our methods, if partner has it with his 3 aces I'll play 7N, otherwise 7♥. If partner has ♠xxx I may be unlucky.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand

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16 pairs, 3 found 7♥

[the hog]

"I would have started with a 2♠ SJS because it would make it easier for me to find out about ♠Q in our methods, if partner has it with his 3 aces I'll play 7N, otherwise 7♥. If partner has ♠xxx I may be unlucky.."
Yes, that is REALLY important at IMPS.

[Tramticket]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-20, 14:42, said:

5♥, to play opposite 0

South gave a 3♥ response to Jacoby, showing extras. You can't be missing three aces.

[thepossum]

Still feeling that some people mistake complexity with skill level

People definitely trying to make basic stuff seem hard and mystify it as advanced

People do the same with regression modelling - oh my model has 10 more variable than theirs - but do they understand the basics

Paid by the variable these days I imagine

If Bridge was big media prime time sport it would be paid by the bid for sure - ads and unnecessary commentary between every bid too

Oh I forgot the constant challenges and video review every step too

People will be looking at bidding stats and wondering why the team with most bids does not necessarily win

Hand 1 - I'm not messing around - thinking about slam - but if not straight to game
Hand 2 - I haven't looked yet - still at the 2-level apparently - apologies - someone didn't mess around

I will probably never get another decent game of Bridge in my life

[jillybean]

the hog, on 2023-March-21, 01:07, said:

Just another thought onKxAKxxxxAKxxx
Mats Nilsland wrote a series of interesting articles on Major suit raises on Bridgewinners.One comment he made was that he does not play trial bids as they give away too much information to the opponents.A new suit after a raise is a slam try in that suit, so 1H 2H 3D here is a slam try in Ds. That would seem to solve all your problems. If you have a trial bid, just bid game and try to make it.

1H 2H 3D can't be a slam try in diamonds. FYP 😂
1H 2H 4H, now try to make it. Hmmm I'm not convinced information leak from trial bids is a concern for club and tournament bridge.

[helene_t]

Start with 1♠ and then if partner appears to have 3-card spade support, we can find out if they have ♠Q. Otherwise set hearts as trump and ask for aces.