[Cyberyeti]

Dealer either:

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or the same with a small heart less and a small club more and will open 2N (not interested in relay auctions)

Partner either:

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or the same with a small heart more and a small club less

How do you bid 7N in all the cases except where you have AK/Qx in the club suit where you want to bid 7♦. We get to 7N in the cases where opener has AKx but not the AK cases where we bid 7♦.

[mw64ahw]

Are you saying you are not interested in 2NT-3♠ as SI minor suit relay to 3NT?

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2023-March-07, 08:21, said:

Are you saying you are not interested in 2NT-3♠ as SI minor suit relay to 3NT?

No I meant strong club auctions where you get full shape.

We start 2N-3♠-3N-4♦ but I consider that a puppet rather than a relay as there is no further relay structure

[mw64ahw]

In which case my auction is
2NT - 3♠
3NT - 4♦
4♥ even KCs - 5♠ All KCs K♠ no K♥
6♣ K♣ no K♥ interest in grand-7♣ Q♣xx(x)
7NT

[DavidKok]

I'm not sure I would be able to do that. My auction would go
2NT - 4♠ (SI with long diamonds);
5♣ (positive with good controls) - 5♠ (extras, spade control, denies a heart control);
5NT (positive. Without a heart control opener can realise that, say, ♠-, ♥QJ(x), ♦AQJxxx(x), ♣Qxx(x) or so is not worth another positive (which is the best hand responder can have with spade shortage), so the spade control is near certain to be the king, making the spade suit a source of tricks) - 6♣ (last train);
?

At this point opener can picture the spade king, diamond AQxxxx and some undisclosed extras, which is likely based on an outside queen. My agreements don't extend beyond this - 6♥ asks responder to bid 7NT with the queen of hearts and 7♦ without it, 6♦, 6NT and 7♦ are to play but 6♠ and 7♣ don't have an assigned meaning. Maybe one of these should ask responder for ♣Qxx (rather than, say, Qx or xx or xxx). At the table I would bid either 7♣ or 7♦, too afraid that 6♠ might be interpreted as a queen ask in that suit.

It is completely unclear to me why 7♣ in mw64ahw's auction has to be based on ♣Qxx(x), and what the systemic bid is with ♣Qx, or why shortage in the club suit is not permitted. I'm also happy not to play the 3♠ tool that way - the choice of game hands with both minors and shortage in a major suit are quite common, as are hands with length in both minors that might be worth a slam try only opposite a good fit.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-March-07, 09:16, said:

No I meant strong club auctions where you get full shape.

We start 2N-3♠-3N-4♦ but I consider that a puppet rather than a relay as there is no further relay structure

Yes usually a Puppet, but I've seen options which incorporate 4♣/♦ as a potential reply

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-March-07, 09:16, said:

We start 2N-3♠-3N-4♦ but I consider that a puppet rather than a relay as there is no further relay structure

We would bid the other minor over 3N (which denies a 5-card minor in NT):
2N-3♠-3N-4♣-4♦ (accepts diamonds and invites control-bids).
Now our normal control/Turbo sequence will establish all keycards and drill down to third level control first in hearts then in clubs. Responder looking at ♣Qx should stop in 7♦ if opener has shown 3rd level control which must be shortness. Otherwise he can count 13 tricks in NT (barring a 4-0 diamonds split, like any grand).

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2023-March-07, 09:55, said:

It is completely unclear to me why 7♣ in mw64ahw's auction has to be based on ♣Qxx(x), and what the systemic bid is with ♣Qx, or why shortage in the club suit is not permitted. I'm also happy not to play the 3♠ tool that way - the choice of game hands with both minors and shortage in a major suit are quite common, as are hands with length in both minors that might be worth a slam try only opposite a good fit.

With all keycards I wouldn't show short ♣(i.e. A♣) and I don't have a systemic bid for Qx♣ in this situation.

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2023-March-07, 09:52, said:

In which case my auction is
2NT - 3♠
3NT - 4♦
4♥ even KCs - 5♠ All KCs K♠ no K♥
6♣ K♣ no K♥ interest in grand-7♣ Q♣xx(x)
7NT

So you don't get there on the variant with ♣AKx/Qx if 7♣ shows a least 3 ?

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction is relatively unscientific:

2N - 3♠ SI one or both minors
3N(forced) - 4♦ (single suited diamonds)
4♥(KB) - 4N(1)
5♣(Q♦?)-5♠(yes, K♠ no K♥)

now 6♣ would say I have the AK, do you have the Q, so is easy if you have AKx, but runs the risk of Qx with AK tight, hence we get to the right spot in 3 of the 4 scenarios.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-March-07, 10:30, said:

So you don't get there on the variant with ♣AKx/Qx if 7♣ shows a least 3 ?

It depends on the partner and which hand I'm playing; I bid 7♦ purely on a modified losing trick basis, which suggests 7-level without adjustments

[mikeh]

we get to 7D in all cases (I hope!) after 2N 3S 3N 4D as per cyber

25 years ago we'd get to 7N with the 2=2=6=3 responding hand, since then (when we had more functioning brain cells) we played a lot of relays, including in response to 2N.

These days, we've simplified (maybe not enough, lol)

Anyway, it doesn't much bother me since we are focused on imps and if the opps knowingly reach the 13 trick 7N on the 2=2=6=3 hand, more power to them. I'm not going to wake up at night worrying about the once in a year sort of small loss that might, but usually won't, arise. Bear in mind that if they don't know exactly what they are doing, we might win a grand slam swing:)

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-March-07, 12:46, said:

we get to 7D in all cases (I hope!) after 2N 3S 3N 4D as per cyber

25 years ago we'd get to 7N with the 2=2=6=3 responding hand, since then (when we had more functioning brain cells) we played a lot of relays, including in response to 2N.

These days, we've simplified (maybe not enough, lol)

Anyway, it doesn't much bother me since we are focused on imps and if the opps knowingly reach the 13 trick 7N on the 2=2=6=3 hand, more power to them. I'm not going to wake up at night worrying about the once in a year sort of small loss that might, but usually won't, arise. Bear in mind that if they don't know exactly what they are doing, we might win a grand slam swing:)

The reason I posted the hand is because the same situation could be the difference between 12 and 13 available tricks rather than as here the difference between grands, so I was interested to see if people could work this out and how.