[AL78]

IMPs. General system is 5CM weak NT, not 2/1.

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We don't have a way of showing a weak two in diamonds hence I passed as opener. After partner shows the big balanced hand what do you think about slam prospects? If you think slam investigation is reasonable how do you go about it?

[Cyberyeti]

Definitely worth looking, I don't think even if partner has 5 spades that it will play better there much of the time, so I simply bid my "slam interested single suited diamonds" bid.

It is possible partner has something like KQx, Axx, Ax, AKJ10x where 6♣ is best but you can't have everything

[nullve]

AL78, on 2022-November-16, 06:46, said:

IMPs. General system is 5CM weak NT, not 2/1.

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We don't have a way of showing a weak two in diamonds hence I passed as opener.

It's ok to have a style where this a 3♦ opening in 1st seat NV. (I do.)

AL78, on 2022-November-16, 06:46, said:

After partner shows the big balanced hand what do you think about slam prospects? If you think slam investigation is reasonable how do you go about it?

I think slam prospects are good.

One response scheme which seems to be quite popular, is

4♣ = "transfer to hearts"
4♦ = "transfer to spades"
4♥ = "transfer to clubs"
4♠ = "transfer to diamonds"

where after a 4♠ response Opener will rebid as follows:

4N = RKC(♦)
5♣ = Last Train (i.e. some interest)
5♦ = minimal interest

.

Playing this, I would respond 4♠ but sign off in 5♦ over 5♣ from partner.

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This would be a harder bidding problem at MPs for obvious reasons.

[DavidKok]

I play the structure outlined above, but for me 4NT shows a positive hand less suitable for a trump contract (and it is NF!) while 5♣ shows a maximum in context. Usually the 4NT bid denies three aces.
Opener may ignore the (next round) signoff with an absolute maximum, and either side may bid first round controls above 5♦ when accepting. I've never had an issue with two missing key cards, and I think on an auction with as many jumps as this one key card asking should not be the main priority.

[Cyberyeti]

Interesting how much space is wasted, we bid 2N-3♠(slam interest one or both minors)-3N-4♦(single suited diamonds) to show this

[DavidKok]

It's not wasted, just a choice of system. 3♠ shows both minors for me. That way opener can freely bid 4m over 3♠ to set trumps with 3NT signoff, meaning responder can also use the 3♠ on choice of games hands or when unsure about stoppers in the major suits. In my experience this is a more frequent hand type than a slam try with a long minor.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-November-16, 09:27, said:

It's not wasted, just a choice of system. 3♠ shows both minors for me. That way opener can freely bid 4m over 3♠ to set trumps with 3NT signoff, meaning responder can also use the 3♠ on choice of games hands or when unsure about stoppers in the major suits. In my experience this is a more frequent hand type than a slam try with a long minor.

We use it for single suited and both minors hands, we lose the ability to immediately set trumps as 3N is forced

[DavidKok]

You don't just lose the ability to set trumps, you lose the (much more valuable) ability to stop in 3NT if opener has a major-oriented hand. This also increases the floor on what hands can bid 3♠ in the first place, since you need to push to 4NT or even 5m even opposite an ill-fitting hand.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-November-16, 10:23, said:

You don't just lose the ability to set trumps, you lose the (much more valuable) ability to stop in 3NT if opener has a major-oriented hand. This also increases the floor on what hands can bid 3♠ in the first place, since you need to push to 4NT or even 5m even opposite an ill-fitting hand.

Yup all hands we put through 3♠ are strong slam interest anyway

[AL78]

I would have liked to investigate slam but lack decent tools with this partner other than bidding 4♦, and where that leads is unknown, so I settled for 3NT. I got away with it because the defence have the ♣AK off the top which are both under my queen, so when my RHO led the ace followed by a small one, partner made 12 tricks.

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I have heard of using 3♠ as slam interest in a minor or both minors but I am not familiar with them. I assume this method has another way of finding the best game when responder holds 5♠/4♥ which is what I use the 3♠ response to show.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2022-November-16, 12:03, said:

I have heard of using 3♠ as slam interest in a minor or both minors but I am not familiar with them. I assume this method has another way of finding the best game when responder holds 5♠/4♥ which is what I use the 3♠ response to show.

We play 2N-3♣-3N as 2♠/2-3♥ so over the 3♦ response (which doesn't guarantee a 4 card major) you know you have an 8 card major suit fit and can remove 3N.

[DavidKok]

We do not have a way to show 5♠/4♥. With a 'trumpy' hand, transfer to spades and bid 4♥, possibly wallowing in the Moysian. With a 'notrumpy' hand, bid 3♣ and miss out on a potential 5-3 spade fit. There are solutions, of course, but the gains are slight, the auction is rare and we are likely to forget when it comes up, not to mention forgetting the negative implications on all other auctions. Plus, if I am going to play something custom over a 2NT opening to land on our feet more often, I am certainly not starting with a modified treatment for exactly 5♠/4♥.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-November-16, 12:30, said:

We do not have a way to show 5♠/4♥. With a 'trumpy' hand, transfer to spades and bid 4♥, possibly wallowing in the Moysian. With a 'notrumpy' hand, bid 3♣ and miss out on a potential 5-3 spade fit. There are solutions, of course, but the gains are slight, the auction is rare and we are likely to forget when it comes up, not to mention forgetting the negative implications on all other auctions. Plus, if I am going to play something custom over a 2NT opening to land on our feet more often, I am certainly not starting with a modified treatment for exactly 5♠/4♥.

When Crowhurst wrote the book many years ago, what AL plays was his simple version, what I play is the more advanced one.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-November-16, 12:09, said:

We play 2N-3♣-3N as 2♠/2-3♥ so over the 3♦ response (which doesn't guarantee a 4 card major) you know you have an 8 card major suit fit and can remove 3N.

Thanks for the info, that looks logical to me. To be honest I can't remember the last time I held 5♠/4♥ opposite a 20+ balanced hand.

[pescetom]

AL78, on 2022-November-16, 12:03, said:

I have heard of using 3♠ as slam interest in a minor or both minors but I am not familiar with them. I assume this method has another way of finding the best game when responder holds 5♠/4♥ which is what I use the 3♠ response to show.

We discussed 2NT - 3♠ methods more than once in the last few years and FWIW I outlined our own methods which are analogous to our majors "Stayman": 4m indicates a 5+ card suit and 3NT denies, over which 4m shows a 4+ card suit.
In this case it would probably go:
---- p
2N 3♠
3N 4♦
4♥ 5♦
p

If responder held 5♠/4♥ of any strength he would have gone through our majors "Stayman" 3♣.

[pescetom]

As a side comment, I violently dislike the reticent explanations "Multi" and "Relay".
"6+ card weak major or 20-21 balanced" and "Pass or correct to 2♠ if not 20-21 balanced" are more in line with my idea of (and some regulations for) disclosure.

[AL78]

pescetom, on 2022-November-16, 16:20, said:

As a side comment, I violently dislike the reticent explanations "Multi" and "Relay".
"6+ card weak major or 20-21 balanced" and "Pass or correct to 2♠ if not 20-21 balanced" are more in line with my idea of (and some regulations for) disclosure.

Rest assured I do give full explanation at the table. When adding the extra information into the hand generator I decided to be concise.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-November-16, 11:03, said:

Yup all hands we put through 3♠ are strong slam interest anyway

Here’s what I’m playing in one partnership, in response to 2N (opened or bid after 2C):

3S forces 3N, to play or to show either both minors or one minor, strong slam interest

3N (instead of 3S) is passable but shows both minors with mild interest. Opener passes with most hands but can bid 4m to show a hand that may mesh well (few slow values in the majors, at least one 4+ minor, and relatively good controls).

We have other stuff thereafter.

[mw64ahw]

I'm a 3S slam interest player too, but you would need an above average control count by opener to make a slam given East's hand.
Typically, I would prefer at least 2 keycards/Queen or 3 controls to make the try with this hand which has three 2+ losers suits