[AL78]

MPs:

---

I was North and double seemed to be the least worst choice. I assumed 1NT showed 6-9 HCP so shied away from going any further. I was wrong and partner held a nice 10 count and made 10 tricks. Four out of five others found it so we should have as well, although it is possible either West didn't open or they overcalled 1NT on my hand as North was declarer every time. Is the upper limit for a 1NT response to a TOX a bit higher than I'm thinking and I should have invited? I've always thought 1NT here is similar to an Acol 1NT response to an opening bid (i.e. around 6-9 HCP).

[DavidKok]

Partner's response shows about 8-10, since you are confirming a misfit and partner is presumed to have around 12-14 points for a minimum takeout double. With less than this you bid some suit at the 2-level.
This is a tough hand to get to game after West opens, my guess is they didn't open on the other tables and North opened with a strong notrump. On the auction shown you could have bid 2NT over 1NT.

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2022-November-12, 07:46, said:

Partner's response shows about 8-10, since you are confirming a misfit and partner is presumed to have around 12-14 points for a minimum takeout double. With less than this you bid some suit at the 2-level.
This is a tough hand to get to game after West opens, my guess is they didn't open on the other tables and North opened with a strong notrump. On the auction shown you could have bid 2NT over 1NT.

Thanks, I wondered if it could be as much as 10, I might have strained a 2NT invite in that case. Almost everyone else is playing weak NT (I live in the UK) so if West doesn't open it will go 1♣ - 1♠; 1NT - 3NT.

[apollo1201]

As said by David, the 1NT response to the TOX is not the standard « garbage catch-it-all » 6-9 but is a rather positive hand, without suit worth mentioning, and a stop in opps suit. The range is 8-10.

So with a nice 15-hand and a likely establishable suit, it is reasonable to encourage partner with 2NT, even at MPs.

And W agressive opening is overcome.

[mycroft]

I'm not aiming this at you (alone), AL, but failure to grok the basic, standard set of responses to takeout doubles is a hallmark of low-intermediate (and possibly high-intermediate) bridge.

Part of the problem is MikeH's "you have to trust partner", and a hallmark of low-intermediate bridge is that if you trust partner, you will be in a lot of ludicrous contracts because they don't know enough to be trustable. So players compensate for partner's "expected untrustworthiness", and when they actually did get it right, this happens. This applies especially to responses to takeout doubles, because it requires both partners to know it - either one not knowing it leads to bad results. (It also leads to both partners knowing "their" responses to takeout doubles, which is fine until they play with someone else. But that's another story.)

There are many threads on these forums that explain that while new suit responses are 0-[8, 9], 1NT response to a takeout double is 8-10. And why ("partner is bidding on shape, and you're saying that shape is worth zero or less"). And that, when you have this kind of hand, you can and should count on that and bid 3NT (especially as you know where "all" the points are, and they're under yours).

But intermediates play with people who will respond 1NT "because I didn't have a suit, partner", and 3NT goes -3 (and because the zero-point, zero-fit hand has to play it, they get upset at doubler for putting them there). So they don't believe their (intermediate) partner when it's right to, and pass 1NT.

[ali quarg]

Maybe controversially I tend to add a point for 4333s when the 4 is in opponents' suit so persuade myself that 2NT is OK

[bluenikki]

AL78, on 2022-November-12, 07:11, said:

MPs:

---

I was North and double seemed to be the least worst choice. I assumed 1NT showed 6-9 HCP so shied away from going any further. I was wrong and partner held a nice 10 count and made 10 tricks. Four out of five others found it so we should have as well, although it is possible either West didn't open or they overcalled 1NT on my hand as North was declarer every time. Is the upper limit for a 1NT response to a TOX a bit higher than I'm thinking and I should have invited? I've always thought 1NT here is similar to an Acol 1NT response to an opening bid (i.e. around 6-9 HCP).

Long ago, Jeff Rubens made a compelling case that the 1NT advance should say "I'm worth a jump, but I have no good suit." So 9-11, including length points.

As soon as west opens 1♠, south should begin thinking about what they will do if partner doubles. Or bids a suit, for that matter.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2022-November-12, 10:52, said:

I'm not aiming this at you (alone), AL, but failure to grok the basic, standard set of responses to takeout doubles is a hallmark of low-intermediate (and possibly high-intermediate) bridge.

Part of the problem is MikeH's "you have to trust partner", and a hallmark of low-intermediate bridge is that if you trust partner, you will be in a lot of ludicrous contracts because they don't know enough to be trustable. So players compensate for partner's "expected untrustworthiness", and when they actually did get it right, this happens. This applies especially to responses to takeout doubles, because it requires both partners to know it - either one not knowing it leads to bad results. (It also leads to both partners knowing "their" responses to takeout doubles, which is fine until they play with someone else. But that's another story.)

There are many threads on these forums that explain that while new suit responses are 0-[8, 9], 1NT response to a takeout double is 8-10. And why ("partner is bidding on shape, and you're saying that shape is worth zero or less"). And that, when you have this kind of hand, you can and should count on that and bid 3NT (especially as you know where "all" the points are, and they're under yours).

But intermediates play with people who will respond 1NT "because I didn't have a suit, partner", and 3NT goes -3 (and because the zero-point, zero-fit hand has to play it, they get upset at doubler for putting them there). So they don't believe their (intermediate) partner when it's right to, and pass 1NT.

I agree with that, but it's also a hallmark of mainstream bridge teaching, at least around here.
The "basic, standard set of responses to takeout doubles" is one of the many things I had to learn for myself from internet and books once I realised that what little I had been taught made no sense.

[AL78]

pescetom, on 2022-November-12, 14:14, said:

I agree with that, but it's also a hallmark of mainstream bridge teaching, at least around here.
The "basic, standard set of responses to takeout doubles" is one of the many things I had to learn for myself once I realised that what little I had been taught made no sense, succeeding thanks to internet and some books.

I'm sure I was taught it was 6-9 HCP and a stop, now I know it is a shade stronger than that. It comes up so rarely that I have never realised I was wrong and have not been burned from the consequences until recently. If mistakes don't have consequences you are liable to keep repeating them.

[pescetom]

AL78, on 2022-November-12, 15:04, said:

I'm sure I was taught it was 6-9 HCP and a stop, now I know it is a shade stronger than that. It comes up so rarely that I have never realised I was wrong and have not been burned from the consequences until recently. If mistakes don't have consequences you are liable to keep repeating them.

And even if they have consequences, postpone judgement (a few data points do not say much).
Bridge is difficult to learn and consequences are a last resort mechanism, although fun when consciously explored on a friday evening game with beer.
I too was taught 6-9 HCP and a stop, but also received no clear indication about the implications of jumps in a suit, let alone that they need not promise extra length.

[nullve]

DavidKok, on 2022-November-12, 07:46, said:

Partner's response shows about 8-10, since you are confirming a misfit and partner is presumed to have around 12-14 points for a minimum takeout double. With less than this you bid some suit at the 2-level.

apollo1201, on 2022-November-12, 10:13, said:

As said by David, the 1NT response to the TOX is not the standard « garbage catch-it-all » 6-9 but is a rather positive hand, without suit worth mentioning, and a stop in opps suit. The range is 8-10.

mycroft, on 2022-November-12, 10:52, said:

There are many threads on these forums that explain that while new suit responses are 0-[8, 9], 1NT response to a takeout double is 8-10. And why ("partner is bidding on shape, and you're saying that shape is worth zero or less"). And that, when you have this kind of hand, you can and should count on that and bid 3NT (especially as you know where "all" the points are, and they're under yours).

By what authority is 8-10 the true range of the 1N advance?

[mycroft]

Okay, maybe 8-10 is a bit pushy. But:

• Here
  
• are
  
• the first
  
• five
  
• links (odd point count for 1NT on this one, but note that honours in opener's suit are treated as -1 HCP)

found when querying "responses to takeout doubles".

So, 7, with some allowing a really good-for-NT 6. But definitely "to 10".

[bluenikki]

mycroft, on 2022-November-12, 19:19, said:

Okay, maybe 8-10 is a bit pushy. But:

• Here
  
• are
  
• the first
  
• five
  
• links (odd point count for 1NT on this one, but note that honours in opener's suit are treated as -1 HCP)

found when querying "responses to takeout doubles".

So, 7, with some allowing a really good-for-NT 6. But definitely "to 10".

All of these discussions evade the crucial fact: Advancer must must must bid a suit when weak. And they must be prepared to bid a 3-card suit in tempo.

As far as I am concerned, 8 points including distribution is weak. But I believe in light distributional doubles.

[sfi]

AL78, on 2022-November-12, 07:11, said:

Is the upper limit for a 1NT response to a TOX a bit higher than I'm thinking and I should have invited?

Frequently when both partners take slightly conservative actions, or even simply both have maximums for their bid, the result can look rather bad. IMO, that's the case here. Both North and South made reasonable decisions, so nobody is to blame even though they missed game. My guess is that at most tables West didn't open 1S, so North got to show their balanced 15-count.

The same logic applies when both partners take reasonable but aggressive actions. The outcome can be silly even though nobody did anything wrong.

[mw64ahw]

A case for playing the style where the 1NT overcall doesn't guarantee a stopper. Alternatively play Power As and NT takeouts.