The 5 level Who owns it?
#1
Posted 2019-September-15, 07:26
This is a typical example ;-
North East South West
1D 1H 1S 3H
3S 4H 4S P
P ?
What do you do as East ? Do you pass or press on to 5!H ? Does the vulnerability influence your decision?
Does the scoring come into your reckoning?.
On the above auction, what would be your action when playing
A) Match Point Pairs
B) IMPS
C) Board-a-Match(Teams)
D) Rubber Bridge.
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
#2
Posted 2019-September-15, 07:38
#3
Posted 2019-September-15, 07:52
sfi, on 2019-September-15, 07:38, said:
Subtle.
#4
Posted 2019-September-15, 08:42
sfi, on 2019-September-15, 07:38, said:
Now that you've looked at your hand,care to give a point of view?)
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
#6
Posted 2019-September-15, 09:01
sfi, on 2019-September-15, 08:47, said:
You may need to explain it to him.
#8
Posted 2019-September-15, 18:25
PhilG007, on 2019-September-15, 08:42, said:
The decision is dependent on the hand you hold, Phil. For example, with this hand:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx, I absolutely pass.
While with this hand:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx, I compete to the 5-level.
Additionally, with the following hand:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx, I probably bid slam.
So as you can plainly see, it very much depends on the cards you hold. I hope this clarifies things.
#9
Posted 2019-September-15, 19:14
In general principle terms: bidding on is more attractive when you have a void in their suit, or when you have a double-fit, and obviously when you're not vul and they are.
The form of scoring is an interesting one. Suppose you're sacking in 5H vs their 4S at IMPs at equal vul:
if you go 2 off (good sac), you win 3
if you go 3 off (bad sac), you lose 2 if NV and 5 if VUL
So you need only 40% odds of a good sac NV, and 63% VUL.
So theoretically, you should sac quite often NV vs NV at teams, but with one big caveat: be sure they're making their contract first! Rubber bridge may have other factors such as if they are about to win the rubber. Pairs/BAM it's a 50/50.
ahydra
#10
Posted 2019-September-15, 22:20
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#12
Posted 2019-September-16, 08:56
barmar, on 2019-September-16, 08:43, said:
That's what Ed Manfield was saying at any rate. Although in that case you could also say that "the three level belongs to the opponents" with almost the same conviction, or so it seems to me.
#13
Posted 2019-September-16, 09:56
pescetom, on 2019-September-16, 08:56, said:
Indeed, it often does, although the LOTT provides some help in deciding whether it's true in a particular case.
#14
Posted 2019-September-16, 10:27
Ultimately, it's just going to come down to partner's tendencies, what kind of hand I should expect here, and most importantly as others have mentioned, the 13 cards that I am holding. No one here can give you much more than very vague commentary without sample hands to be more instructive with...
Hope it helps.
#15
Posted 2019-September-16, 13:33
sfi, on 2019-September-15, 08:47, said:
In other words,you're dodging the question and not prepared to commit yourself Fair do
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
#16
Posted 2019-September-16, 13:47
On his example auction, with a good partner, the answer is: never.
I assume that 3H was preemptive. If not, then my views may change, but most would play it as preemptive.
So: if we had extra shape, we would have bid 4H right away. One always, strives to bid the limit of a preemptive hand as soon as possible. Thus we do not hold a hand with which we intended, if need be, to compete to 4H.
Having described our hand, with hour first call, we stay mute thereafter unless one of two situations arise.
In the first one, partner makes a call that asks our views. Here, for example, we'd want to be at the 5-level if we have a double-fit, or partner has extreme shape. He knows his shape, so if, opposite our 3H call, he wants to be 5H over 4S, he can bid it. More commonly, he doesn't know...so he seeks our input by bidding something between 3S and 4H. With, say,1=6=2=4, and some club values, he'd bid 4C. Now, if we happen to have values and length in clubs, we bid 5H (or once in a blue moon with really long clubs, 5C). Otherwise we pass.
The other exception is when we have completely unexpected defence: say we hold KQ109 in spades....unlikely, yes, but maybe partner is void. Now we can double!
On balance, however, I return to my main point: once one has described one's hand below game, one passes thereafter unless partner involves you or you have exceptional and surprising defence.
#17
Posted 2019-September-16, 15:30
The one who goes ought to have shortness (stiff or void) in the opponents suit or be able to be sure partner is short to limit losers there,
You can consider "taking the push" with a big 2 suited fit with partner, like 2=4=1=6 opposite the hand mikeh posited (1=6=2=4) bidding 4 ♣ on, and,
You can consider "taking the push" with a big trump fit and complementary distribution, like 3=5=4=1 opposite mikeh's 4 ♣ hand.
One thing to be aware of and concerned about in competitive auctions (and most especially at IMPS) is pushing the opponent's into a makeable game contract they otherwise wouldn't have bid. Another thing is overbidding when the opponents are going down. These really are something you learn to judge with playing experience
#18
Posted 2019-September-16, 15:48
Here, the 4H bidder assumed captaincy: the 3H bidder has no rights in this auction, other than the extremely rare penalty double.
Overcaller is assumed to have anticipated that the opps would bid game, and to have made his 4H call expecting that a decision to save or penalize, or simply defend would be his (again, a constant refrain is that advancer has the option of doubling but this should be on an exceptional trump holding).
The 3H bid, describing one's hand within narrow constraints and having no constructive overtones, left it to overcaller what to do.....but overcaller can transfer the captaincy by inviting an opinion via a descriptive 4m call.
If I ever found myself, in the given example sequence where I bid 3H, weak, over RHO's 1S, of even thinking about bidding over 4S that would be (a) an admission that I misbid the first time and (b) at the least the beginning of serious strain if I were playing with one of my two regular partners. Partner knows what he bid 4H on and, more importantly, why he bid it and what he intended to do if they bid 4S: and he wasn't asking me for my opinion.
With all respect for those who have offered suggestions as to what to look for in your hand, as a guide to bidding or passing: they are, in my opinion, mistaken. 3H renounced any intention of ever bidding an unsolicited 5H. If you think your hand merits it, you made a bad bid last time.
#19
Posted 2019-September-17, 00:01
Look at the original question. It's the overcaller with the decision to make, not the 3H raiser. I agree 3H bidder isn't ever doing anything. Everyone else is saying factors for what the overcaller to decide what to do. I think it's perfectly normal for overcaller to have a decision between pass/5H/dbl, as 4H could have been bid for any number of reasons, as overcaller has a much wider range of HCP & shape compared to the raiser.
I wonder if Phil has realized yet that he never posted the actual hand held ...
#20
Posted 2019-September-17, 00:23
Stephen Tu, on 2019-September-17, 00:01, said:
Look at the original question. It's the overcaller with the decision to make, not the 3H raiser. I agree 3H bidder isn't ever doing anything. Everyone else is saying factors for what the overcaller to decide what to do. I think it's perfectly normal for overcaller to have a decision between pass/5H/dbl, as 4H could have been bid for any number of reasons, as overcaller has a much wider range of HCP & shape compared to the raiser.
I wonder if Phil has yet to realize he never posted the actual hand held ...
Me bad. There I go talking about other peopless poor reading and I make a blunder like that😛