[thepossum]

Hi all

I was declarer on this hand in a tourney. This is not my auction but could have been. What would you lead. Only S is human

regards P

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[FelicityR]

I usually follow the Benito Garozzo maxim: an aggressive lead (may) beat a slam. But something doesn't feel right here about leading a ♥. A trump looks safe but it loses time. To me, the unbid suit ♦s could well be right. ♦9

[Cyberyeti]

What sort of game try ? long or short ?

[Tramticket]

I would want to know more about the 3♥ bid. This was ostensibly a game try, but South then carried on to slam A game try suggests a suit where help is required (indicating a heart lead). But after South carries on past game, does this now mean that the bid was an advance cue bid? Leading a heart is much less attractive if East is likely to have the ace for this cue-bid.

[HardVector]

Tramticket, on 2019-July-30, 03:56, said:

I would want to know more about the 3♥ bid. This was ostensibly a game try, but South then carried on to slam A game try suggests a suit where help is required (indicating a heart lead). But after South carries on past game, does this now mean that the bid was an advance cue bid? Leading a heart is much less attractive if East is likely to have the ace for this cue-bid.

I agree with this. If it was a help suit game try, then N accepted. You can expect one of two scenarios with this. N/S have the ace and queen, or south has the ace and N has shortness (South is marked with this by their use of Blackwood). I'd lead the 9♦.

[thepossum]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-30, 02:21, said:

What sort of game try ? long or short ?

This is part of where I do not really understand parts of this bidding system we are using. I'm not really familiar with the concept of "game try" bids. I understand bidding a second suit to give a choice or maybe options of no trumps. But I'm am assuming it means that they need help based on my knowledge of the hand

However the definition given of the 3H bid after the 1S bid is as follows:

Game try suit: 3+ H, 4+ S, 10+ HCP, 11+ TPs, Forcing

This is what the GiB notes say
"Two-way Game Tries
After a single raise of a major suit, GIB plays two-way game tries.


The next step (1♥-2♥-2♠, 1♠-2♠-2NT) is a short-suit game try, showing unspecified shortness. Responder can bid the next step above that (2NT or 3♣) to ask where the shortness is. Opener bids the short suit, or bids his major if the short suit is one of the step suits.
Any other bid below 3 of the major is a long suit game try, at least a 3-card suit with some honors. After 1♥-2♥, 2NT is a LSGT in spades (since 2♠ would be a short-suit game try).
3 of the major is a general strength game try, showing about 17 points with no singleton or void (GIB rarely makes this bid, since this would probably be a 1NT opener)."

and this is how I understand responses to game tries (from BridgeBum)
"After hearing a help suit game try, responder should bid game with 0 - 1.5 losers in the suit. (In other words, a first or second round control.) With 2 - 2.5 losers, responder must exercise judgement. And with 3 losers (e.g. a worthless tripleton), responder should sign off in 3/."

And without wanting to influence the lead discussion, hoping everyone can abstract themselves, but only one table bid it (out of a group of30+ players including Experts and Advanced players). I did consider it as one of several possible bids but it was not the obvious or most likely choice of bids


PS We were playing IMPs

PPS From my ordinary level of bridge, thinking about the lead and what the auction means there is really only one lead likely to bring down the slam. But I'm biased by knowing the hand. If dummy has cover for the king then there is no real chance since you cant get two diamond tricks (based on HCPs). The only hope is that partner has Ace hearts??? Or am I missing an option (like partner having Q hearts and an Ace?). MAybe its all very borderline but I dont feel going to slam was justified unless declarer knows what the lead is going to be. By the way, it was perfectly legitimate bidding (just) so I'm not suggesting anything untoward but......North only gives a simple raise and when I show the hands South doesnt have that strong a hand

[Tramticket]

From the above, it seems that 3♥ shows a long suit game try showing "at least a 3-card suit with some honors".

A game try is usually a mechanism for deciding whether the partnership should be in a part-score or game. In this auction South has heard North choose to bid game opposite the game try and has then carried on to investigate slam. The question remains, whether this has now changed the meaning of the 3♥ bid? Some would play that 3♥ is initially a long-suit game try, but if South carries on the bidding this has shown a control in hearts - this is the concept of an advance cue-bid. But it might be that the bid shows exactly the same hand type as the game-try - but with additional values - a slam try.

There is a final piece of confusion: long suit game tries are usually made in a suit where help is required and the response structure suggested by Bridgebums is based on that assumption. But the description of the (GIB?) bid quoted above suggests that the bid will have some honours. How will this affect our lead decision? If partner has the ace then a heart lead is attractive. If North has the ace, a heart lead might also be attractive since (i) declarer is on a guess at trick 1 and might play the ace, (ii) partner might have the queen. Note that it is unlikely to cost a trick to lead a heart when North has the ace since the king is unlikely to make a trick anyway with the ace sitting over it. The time when a heart lead is less attractive is if South has the ace - the only time when it might help develop a trick is when partner has the queen. If South has the ace, you might be better to defend passively and hope that declarer has to take a losing finesse in hearts (you are never going to be end-played to lead away from the king).

Note that this passive defence looks attractive since South appears to have chosen to bid slam based on the assumption that North is maximum - i.e. based on high cards rather than shape. This implies that declarer might not be able to avoid a heart finesse.

This is the reason why we are keen to understand about the 3♥ bid.

[thepossum]

ok then, given there seems confusion about the meaning of the bid in GiB land and the bid doesnt necessarily represent the expectation of the heart suit. Also given that only one table went via that route and bid to slam. All other tables, including me, assessed the hand as a game hand and ended in 4S or 3NT. I thought there were too many losers and after seeing the final hand I thought it was somewhat lucky making slam on a non heart lead

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All I'm trying to understand is whether the 3H bid was a valid option. I dont really understand game tries but didnt really think of anything other than game and didnt feel that showing an additional suit was necessary. However the person who took the chance made on a (for me) lucky lead

[Cyberyeti]

It's a valid but odd choice (I'd bid 3♦). Slam is great if you know you're not getting a heart lead, and S has done well to discourage it.

[Tramticket]

I would be content with bidding 4S. I would not lose sleep over the fact that one pair bid and made slam - it is a poor contract.

I might have bid 3NT to offer a choice of game since North only promises three-card support. (For some, this might be a "non-serious" slam try, which might also be a good bid!).

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2019-July-31, 14:17, said:

I would be content with bidding 4S. I would not lose sleep over the fact that one pair bid and made slam - it is a poor contract.

I might have bid 3NT to offer a choice of game since North only promises three-card support. (For some, this might be a "non-serious" slam try, which might also be a good bid!).

Err he promises 4 spades, he only promises 3 clubs according to the tip

[smerriman]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-31, 15:44, said:

Err he promises 4 spades, he only promises 3 clubs according to the tip

Despite the description, GIB will still raise with 3 with some 3145 shapes, like most humans.

[thepossum]

Thanks everyone for the comments

I'm still rather confused about the use of the game tries. Reading about them there seem to be so many possible meanings - long, short and help - that its a bit unclear how this was being used and the response and infuence on leads

From my feeling about the hand with Jxx hearts that definitely/could have been asking for help - then with 2 losers and a decent point count N went to game, but with fewer points would have signed off in 3?

If it was a help bid and interepeted as such by GiB then I would have thought and my own sims show that a small heart lead gives the best chance. However if you assume that the heart bid shows higher honours Q+ then a diamond or other lead is just as good

What confuses me is that I would assume all the bots to interpret the bid in the same way Maybe I dont understand them well enough but from what I can see they can be used for almost anything

[helene_t]

thepossum, on 2019-July-31, 22:46, said:

I'm still rather confused about the use of the game tries. Reading about them there seem to be so many possible meanings - long, short and help - that its a bit unclear how this was being used and the response and infuence on leads

Me too. I think it tends to be a weak or at least broken suit, and maybe its best use is to do it with a void or a solid suit to confuse the opponents

With regular partners, I play it as a broken suit that would benefit from a colaborating top honour but not from shortness. KJxx is ideal. Some teachers suggest that it should show a small singleton (like a splinter) as this is a cleaner definition.

Also, a good idea is to play the cheapest call as a general asking bid, asking partner to make some trial bid. That way, opponents learn about dummy and not about declarer.

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2019-July-31, 23:26, said:

Me too. I think it tends to be a weak or at least broken suit, and maybe its best use is to do it with a void or a solid suit to confuse the opponents

I've never had any problem explaining and playing Help Suit Game Try, it's the long/short/2-way stuff that engenders confusion and mishaps. As often, Larry Cohen describes it well and I'm sure he won't mind a cut and paste here:

Help Suit Game Try
A help suit game try (aka weak suit game try) may occur
after an auction begins 1♥:2♥ or 1♠:2♠.
When opener holds invitational values (15-17 HCP), he
can bid a new suit at the cheapest level to say, "Partner,
I'm interested in game, but I have weakness in this suit.
Please bid game if you have a good holding in this suit."
Partnership styles vary, but examples of suits meriting a
help suit game try are:
• xxx(xx) • Qxx(xx) • Kxx(xx) • Axx(xx)
• Jxx(xx) • QJX(xx) • KJx(xx)
Note that a help suit game try can be made with only a
three-card suit, but it does not need to be alerted under
ACBL tournament rules.
After hearing a help suit game try, responder should bid
game with 0 - 1.5 losers in the suit. (In other words, a first
or second round control.) With 2 - 2.5 losers, responder
must exercise judgement. And with 3 losers (e.g. a
worthless tripleton), responder should sign off in 3♥/♠.
Examples of responder's possible holdings in the help
suit:
(1) Holding # Losers Responder's Call
void 0 losers Bid Game
AK 0 losers
x 1 loser
Ax 1 loser
KJxx 1.5 losers
(2) Holding # Losers Responders Call
xx 2 losers Bid game with a
Kxx 2 losers Maximum
QTxx 2.5 losers
34
(3) Holding # Losers Responders Call
xxx 3 losers Sign off in 3♥/♠
Txxx 3 losers
Jxxxx 3 losers

[akwoo]

If you are playing with GiB, you should simply ignore all the game tries. GiB isn't smart enough to actually use the information you give in your game tries to evaluate its hand. It's one of the big problems in its bidding.

Playing with a human, you should discuss with the human what your agreements are. If you (or your partner) aren't good enough to evaluate your hand beyond counting points, then you should ignore them.