[straube]

At some point in my auction I have the bids 3D, 3H, 3S and 3N all open for a GF single-suited (6+)diamond hand. Responder will have a GF balanced hand roughly 25% of the time and 0-4 any shape the other 75% of the time.

My first thought was to make

3D-higher short
3H-middle short
3S-lower short
3N-balanced

which could turn into a relay auction (high though) when responder has the GF balanced hand but also could be useful for responder with a 0-4.

But then I looked at hands and very frequently that shortness is a stiff aced or king. When a weak responder can't stop the suit, we would miss 3N.

Any ideas? Is finding a major suit fit (only opposite 0-4) of much importance? Thinking it isn't.

[Kungsgeten]

So opener is GF vs the 0-4 hand, but responder can also have 8+ balanced (if I understand responder's GF correctly)?

I'm thinking that with the GF hands it might be okay to only know the shortness. Full relays perhaps aren't necessary? I'd probably use the lowest step as balanced though, perhaps like this:

3D = Single-suiter, "balanced" or stiff A/K. Maybe also some freak hands.
...3H = 5 spades, or balanced SI.
......3S = Min, no spade fit.
......3NT = Max, no spade fit.
......4C = Min, spade fit.
......4D = Max, spade fit.
...3S = Transfer to 3NT. Could perhaps include weak hands with great diamond fit and shortness?
...3NT = 5 hearts.
...4? = Transfer to major with six+ cards. Texas or SAT or whatever you usually play.
3H = Hi short. Responder can raise with 5+ hearts.
3S = Mid short. Responder can raise with 5+ spades.
3N = Lo short. Responder's 4M is natural?

Not sure about all this, but might give some ideas.

[straube]

Yes, you understand the problem right. Thanks for your ideas. Interesting solution after 3D-3H; going to the 4-level is safe opposite the GF balanced as well as the 0-4 spade hands

I think if opener shows shortness (or balanced), responder pretty much needs a 6-cd major to insist on the major. Usually even that 6-cd suit will be a bad suit.

[straube]

How about if opener is only allowed to show one weak holding....could be a stiff ace or king. This would imply 2+ cards in other suits

3D-weak club
.....3H-5H
..........3S-3S
..........3N-2S, asks removal if clubs aren't stopped
.....3S-5S
.....3N-clubs stopped

3H-weak heart
.....3S-5S

3S-weak spade
.....3N-spades stopped

3N-no weakness, could have a stiff ace if diamonds are runnable, pretty strongly suggests this contract
.....4M-6-cd suit playable opposite stiff ace

[straube]

Basing this off of Kungsgeten's suggestion. Let's say opener has primary diamonds....

3D-GF, balanced or stiff ace
.....3H-DN, S
.....3S-DN, NT suggestion
.....3N-DN, H
.....4C-RKC
.....4D-DN, fit

3H-GF, short S
.....3S-RKC
.....3N-DN, S stopper or length
.....4C-DN, C
.....4D-DN, fit
.....4H-DN, H

3S-GF, short H
.....3N-DN, H stopper or length
.....4C-DN, C
.....4D-DN, D
.....4H-RKC
.....4S-DN, S

3N-gambling based on tricks, maybe a 20 ct
.....4C-RKC (other minor is always the RKC ask opposite presumed balanced hands)

4C-GF, short C
.....4D-DN, D
.....4H-DN, H
.....4S-DN, S
.....4N-DN, C stopper or length
.....5C-RKC

ok having 5C RKC here makes no sense but I'm trying to avoid exceptions. Basically responder should have a balanced hand of 9+ hcps and opener will have probably 23+ such that RKC ask as the only strong bid doesn't seem that bad to me. So RKC will always be a bid of opener's shortness or (with no shortness) a bid of the other minor.

[nullve]

straube, on 2019-May-10, 12:31, said:

3D-GF, balanced or stiff ace
.....3H-DN, S
.....3S-DN, NT suggestion
.....3N-DN, H
.....4C-RKC
.....4D-DN, fit

Can you find all 5-3 and 6-2 major fits while consistently avoiding silly 7c fits?

straube, on 2019-May-10, 12:31, said:

4C-GF, short C
.....4D-DN, D
.....4H-DN, H
.....4S-DN, S
.....4N-DN, C stopper or length
.....5C-RKC

Can you really afford to bypass 3N on all GF hands with 3-S3-H6+D and a stiff non-A C?

[straube]

No and no. It’s a difficult problem bu I feel we should be ahead of those that arrive at 3D to show a GF single suited hand.

I like Kungsgeten’s structure. I need a place for an underpowered hand that has a running suit and wants to play 3N. I also need a spot for a hand too strong to offer 3N.

Any ideas?

[straube]

nullve's questions helped me. Thanks

for primary diamonds

3D-GF, assume 2272
.....3H-DN, 6S
.....3S-DN, other
.....3N-6H
.....4C-QP ask, then PCB

3H-GF, assume 1363
.....3S-QP ask, then PCB
.....3N-DN, spade stop
.....4C-DN, 5C
.....4D-DN
.....4H-DN, 5H

3S-GF, assume 3163
.....3N-DN, heart stop
.....4C-DN, 5C
.....4D-DN
.....4H-QP ask, then PCB
.....4S-DN, 5S

3N-GF, assume 3361
.....P-DN, club stop
.....4C-QP ask, then PCB
.....4D-DN
.....4H-DN, 5H
.....4S-DN, 5S

If opener has the gambling (underpowered) hand that should be revealed after a QP ask. The entry point is 3D.

I'm using 7222 as my assumed shape for GI hands which are shown at the points of 3C and 3D. I know it's sloppy.

[awm]

I'm not sure what the rest of your structure is, but this gets a lot easier if you can treat the semi-balanced hands in a different way (i.e. show GF balanced). Then you only need to worry about hands with shortness, and can put together some combination of your ideas and Kungsten's like:

3♦ = short clubs, at least 2 in each major
... 3♥ = 5+spades or relay
...... 3♠ = not three spades, typically 2371
...... 3NT = 3361
...... 4♣ = 3271
...... 4♦ = 3370
... 3♠ = 5+hearts
...... 3NT = only two hearts
...... else = fit for hearts
... 3NT = to play

3♥ = short spades, at least 2 hearts
... 3♠ = 5+hearts or relay
...... 3NT = not three hearts, typically 1273
...... 4♣ = 1336
...... 4♦ = 1372
...... 4♥ = 0373

3♠ = short hearts, exactly three spades
... 3NT/4♠ to play
... 4♣ relay

3NT = short hearts, 2173 or similar

[straube]

Pretty clever. I'll have to think about it but it would create some conflicts. We can relay the big balanced hands but they are only allowed 5332s and the same machinery is used for 1D openings and 1C-1S, 2C-2D and such.

I've noticed, too, that a lot of giant 6331s have a stiff ace. Some of these hands (runnable suit) don't want the DN running from 3N and others wouldn't mind, especially if a major suit were found.

Also not totally sold on finding major suit fits. They aren't that common and if there's a major suit fit with a DN the suit is often poor anyway (maybe this is sour grape reasoning)

I really like that your first step is a relay ask. Hm.

Btw I just revised 1C-1D, 1S and 1C-1D, 1N. If you have the time to take a look, I still have some concerns about it.

[straube]

This structure is really growing on me. I'd rather have these relays than for the strong balanced hands.

Does your opener ever arrive at 2N with a strong balanced hand opposite a balanced GF hand? If so, would you want responder to be able to relay these hands? Curious what you think of the tradeoff here.

We arrive at 2N for several ranges. The transfers immediately identify DNs whereas the 3C bid starts a relay kind of like Stayman.

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2019-May-11, 17:59, said:

I like Kungsgeten’s structure. I need a place for an underpowered hand that has a running suit and wants to play 3N. I also need a spot for a hand too strong to offer 3N.

Any ideas?

Maybe the same structure that I suggested, but with this tweak:

3D = Semi-bal or stiff A/K. (Same as before)
3H = Short spades, or a gambling 3NT hand.
3S = Short hearts. (Same as before)
3NT = Short other minor. (Same as before)

So the 3H bid now has the gambling hand included. What can responder do?

3S = Relay. Asking for hand type, either strong or DN with 5+ hearts or DN worried about spades (or perhaps DN wanting to play 5m).
...3NT = Gambling type.
...4C = Short spades and "min". 4D is strong and asks singleton or void, 4H is to play.
...4D = Singleton, extras. 4H to play, 4S is RKC.
...4H = Void, extras but NF. 4S is exclusion.
...4S = Void and crazy strong hand. 4NT is exclusion.
3NT = DN not worried about spades, usually not 5+H.

[straube]

You noticed that 3H has that cheap relay ask

Too complicated for us I think. These hands are too rare to devote extra machinery. I'm thinking of keeping my last proposal. Your first four bids are easy enough to remember.
After that it's just remembering 1) assumed shape of 7222 or 6331 depending and 2) whether DN can introduce a 5-cd suit depends on the assumed shape and 3) QP ask is
shortness opposite 6331 or other minor opposite 7222.

I really like Adam's structure but I can't have both that and relays for the big balanced hands. Our big balanced include 4441s.

[straube]

I overlooked that I can separate 5 from 6 card spade suits after a 3D start. Responder transfers with 5+ and opener accepts with 2 and super-accepts with 3. I can also separate 5 rom 6 hearts after a 3C (invitational) start.

I looked at 25 hands that were either DN or GF positive and 23 hands were DN and 2 were GF positive.