[apollo1201]

Diamonds cramp up space bidding vs. Clubs, there are some ways to deal with it, but here?

You deal and open 1S at red IMPs, partner bids a (F) 1NT, you show your 2nd suit with 2D and partner supports your Ds at the 3rd level:
1S-1NT
2D-3D

Red IMPs, with the presumed 5-cd D suit opposite and good chances of running the suit, and overall nice values, you want to move now, but how...

K9xxx
x
AKxx
AJx

I punted 3NT. Partner didn’t escape the H lead, but she had Qx Axxx xxxxx Kx and played at top level to see that the D ran, and that the CQ was friendly that day.

Was there a better way to bid, though, and assess if 5D or maybe 4S were better?

Thanks!

[heart76]

apollo1201, on 2018-July-25, 00:18, said:

Diamonds cramp up space bidding vs. Clubs, there are some ways to deal with it, but here?

You deal and open 1S at red IMPs, partner bids a (F) 1NT, you show your 2nd suit with 2D and partner supports your Ds at the 3rd level:
1S-1NT
2D-3D

Red IMPs, with the presumed 5-cd D suit opposite and good chances of running the suit, and overall nice values, you want to move now, but how...

K9xxx
x
AKxx
AJx

I punted 3NT. Partner didn’t escape the H lead, but she had Qx Axxx xxxxx Kx and played at top level to see that the D ran, and that the CQ was friendly that day.

Was there a better way to bid, though, and assess if 5D or maybe 4S were better?

Thanks!

I have discussed this recently with a new partner and have agreed that after auctions like yours or 1m-1M / 3m, a new major (which pd has denied) shows a stopper. This gives something away to the opps but allows pd decide and orient 3NT.
This logic implies that a rebid of the major in your case, i.e. 1S-1NT / 2D-3D / 3S is inviting to 3NT without a H stop. A 6+ cards S bids of course 2S and not 2D.

Regarding the 3D bid, I have not managed to find a cheaper way in a natural system. 2H would be a weakish 6 card. 2S weak preference. 2NT invitational with typ. 1-2 S, 3 D with stops in the unbid suits and with Kx in C is risky. 3C could be weak with 6+ cards or invitational with C stop.

But I am also rather interested in if this is suboptimal and alternatives

[apollo1201]

heart76, on 2018-July-25, 04:44, said:

A 6+ cards S bids of course 2S and not 2D.

Not necessarily unfortunately, especially at IMPs (unless the suit is really weak and the Major robust). But I would not bypass AKxx as I held here. Except that, I agree with the rest of your comments😃.
It is slightly easier to handle in auctions like 1M-2D-3D that 3M is either fit or problem of stop in the other M, while 3oM is problem in Cs. And here it is too hard to play 3S as 6+ or problem with H.
With an auction at 3C instead of 3D you can easily bid the suit you stop, or unambiguously give an fit / show a 6-carder below 3NT.
Seems we’re stuck!

[ggwhiz]

There is no easy solution but to play the odds, especially at imps.

The circumstances needed to make 9 tricks at notrump make 6♦ cold. Not that slam is biddable but 5♦ is highly odds on and 3nt with a stiff heart was a very poor gamble that happened to work. Even at matchpoints 3nt rates to be just in (or down)

I would bid 4♣ patterning out and expect to land in 5♦ but with an outside chance that partner may have the hand to bid slam.

[Stephen Tu]

It seems to me if you want to get fancy, you could do something along the lines of:1s-1nt-2d-3d:

• 4S - 7 spades / 6 solidish spades
• 3nt - to play
• 3S - short hearts presumed 5 spades only.
• 3H - 6 spades or short clubs, after which responder's 3nt = to play opposite either hand. 3S = asks, then opener 3nt = short clubs, 4x = long spades various shapes.

[rmnka447]

Opener's hand is definitely good enough to try for game. Normally, you pass the 3 ♦ raise with minimum 12 - tepid 14 HCP hands. You can make a move toward game possibly with a great 14 but more often with a 15+ hand.

Without a fit in the major, but with a fit in the rebid minor, the first priority is to explore whether 3 NT is a possible spot to play. Opener's 3 ♥ rebid would presumably show a ♥ stopper and ask about ♣. 3 NT would show stoppers in both side suits. So, logically, 3 ♠ is the only bid available to ask about a ♥ stopper and show a ♣ stopper. The only potential problem is that 3 ♠ might also be bid with a good 6 ♠/4 ♦ hand.

After a 3 ♠ rebid responder can assess whether to bid 3 NT with a ♥ stopper or not. If 3 NT is a no go, responder rebids 4 ♦.

If opener happens to have the 6-4 hand, opener can carry on to 4 ♦ or 4 ♠ over responder's rebid. (Remember with a minimum 6-4 hand, it's customary for opener to just rebid 2 of the major.)

Responder might also consider an initial rebid of 2 NT over opener's 2 ♦ rebid.

[PhilG007]

apollo1201, on 2018-July-25, 00:18, said:

Diamonds cramp up space bidding vs. Clubs, there are some ways to deal with it, but here?

You deal and open 1S at red IMPs, partner bids a (F) 1NT, you show your 2nd suit with 2D and partner supports your Ds at the 3rd level:
1S-1NT
2D-3D

Red IMPs, with the presumed 5-cd D suit opposite and good chances of running the suit, and overall nice values, you want to move now, but how...

K9xxx
x
AKxx
AJx

I punted 3NT. Partner didn't escape the H lead, but she had Qx Axxx xxxxx Kx and played at top level to see that the D ran, and that the CQ was friendly that day.

Was there a better way to bid, though, and assess if 5D or maybe 4S were better?

Thanks!

Why did your partner raise the diamonds with a minimum hand when there was no justification?! You were asking for simple preference so he/she should simply have passedthe 2D bid and there you rest making 9/10 tricks. Its on occasions like this that make me wish bridge wasn't a partnership game(!)

[msjennifer]

With just 9 HCP and also 9 losers with nothing known to know the real value of the Kx Of Clubs ,I ,Personally, would not have dared to raise to 3D.Change the Spade Qx to Ax of Spades and 3D suddenly becomes obvious.

[Stephen Tu]

One raises because your cards are working except perhaps the K of clubs, you probably have nine card fit, and good things happen more often when you have 9 cd fits, like bidding making vulnerable games at IMPs.
pro raising:

• Partner is wide ranging, can have up to 18 HCP. There are plenty of hands where game just rolls, like the posted hand (in 5d; 3nt was lucky). Sometimes partner has hands just short of a jump shift, or strongish 6spade - 4 diamond hands. If you pass 2D when game is on ice or even just a 50-50 shot you should be quite unhappy.
• On a fairly large percent of hands where 2d is all you can make, if you pass your LHO is going to balance back in with double or 2H, and you will end up having to bid 3d anyway. So passing isn't going to gain in those cases. Also sometimes they push to 3H and you find you still can't beat it despite having the 4th trump, whereas 3d would have kept them out of the auction. Also on a large chunk of hands where partner is min and you can only make 2d, the opps would have come into the auction at an earlier point.

con raising:

• sometimes you were going to buy it for 2d, the opps weren't going to balance, and 2d was the max
• sometimes after 3D partner pushes you into a game that fails

So it is basically a judgment call of whether one wins more IMPS by raising when you get to game and make than you lose by bidding game or 3d down 1 when the opps were going to let you buy it at 2. I personally think it's a minimum but pretty clear raise. If the suit were clubs it would be a closer call, since then more often 8 cd fit than 9. Still with 9 HCP I'd always try to keep the auction alive with a 2S preference, that can get to game is strong enough to bid again. It's pretty unlucky to be able to make 2m but not 2S on the 5-2 with 9HCP. The time to pass is with spade misfit and 7-HCP or some poor 8s. Or if you are playing some strong club type system where game chances are remote.

If you can make just 2 vul games (+10 imps) for every 3 times raising backfires (typically -6), you are positive net IMPS. Plus there are a bunch of pushes when partner passes 3d, and you make 9 or 10 tricks there.

[msjennifer]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-July-26, 02:36, said:

One raises because your cards are working except perhaps the K of clubs, you probably have nine card fit, and good things happen more often when you have 9 cd fits, like bidding making vulnerable games at IMPs.
pro raising:

• Partner is wide ranging, can have up to 18 HCP. There are plenty of hands where game just rolls, like the posted hand (in 5d; 3nt was lucky). Sometimes partner has hands just short of a jump shift, or strongish 6spade - 4 diamond hands. If you pass 2D when game is on ice or even just a 50-50 shot you should be quite unhappy.
• On a fairly large percent of hands where 2d is all you can make, if you pass your LHO is going to balance back in with double or 2H, and you will end up having to bid 3d anyway. So passing isn't going to gain in those cases. Also sometimes they push to 3H and you find you still can't beat it despite having the 4th trump, whereas 3d would have kept them out of the auction. Also on a large chunk of hands where partner is min and you can only make 2d, the opps would have come into the auction at an earlier point.

con raising:

• sometimes you were going to buy it for 2d, the opps weren't going to balance, and 2d was the max
• sometimes after 3D partner pushes you into a game that fails

So it is basically a judgment call of whether one wins more IMPS by raising when you get to game and make than you lose by bidding game or 3d down 1 when the opps were going to let you buy it at 2. I personally think it's a minimum but pretty clear raise. If the suit were clubs it would be a closer call, since then more often 8 cd fit than 9. Still with 9 HCP I'd always try to keep the auction alive with a 2S preference, that can get to game is strong enough to bid again. It's pretty unlucky to be able to make 2m but not 2S on the 5-2 with 9HCP. The time to pass is with spade misfit and 7-HCP or some poor 8s. Or if you are playing some strong club type system where game chances are remote.

If you can make just 2 vul games (+10 imps) for every 3 times raising backfires (typically -6), you are positive net IMPS. Plus there are a bunch of pushes when partner passes 3d, and you make 9 or 10 tricks there.

Yes sir,I fully agree with you.I never imagined,while making my earlier comments ,that Playing a Standard System there can be even 17 or 18 points and is unable to make a jump shift.A game in that case is easily makeable.I mostly play Super Precision where the opening is a range 11/15 HCP and hence there is very little point in raising diamonds unless one wants to keep the opponents guessing whether to balance or not at three level.Thanks a lot.However ,As I said,if it is Spade Ax and not Qx,then a game is certainly possible even if partner is minimum when playing Precision.

[thawp66]

This might be slightly off topic, but why the !C finesse? After winning the 3rd round of hearts and finding!D 2-2, playing on !S works if the SA is in a hand with < 5 heats.

[dokoko]

You might consider playing Gazzilli (1M-1NT-2♣ is nat or 16+) where opener's rebids of 2♦♥♠ limit his hand.

[apollo1201]

thawp66, on 2018-July-26, 05:37, said:

This might be slightly off topic, but why the !C finesse? After winning the 3rd round of hearts and finding!D 2-2, playing on !S works if the SA is in a hand with < 5 heats.

I don’t precisely remember but I think she forgot to duck Hs...

[kuhchung]

Or maybe their carding looked like 5-3 hearts, shrug

Hard to blame taking the club hook without details

[miamijd]

Opener's 2D rebid after 1NT (F) is a weakness of the 2/1 structure. You just have to live with it.

Here, I think most folks would be stuck in 2S. With Qx, I think most experts would take a preference back to 2S rather than raising diamonds. Generally, you are going to play a part-score, and if you have one fewer spade, that's going to be offset by the fact that you are playing a level lower. 2S also leaves room for opener to bid again and show his hand. 3D implies 0-1 spades most of the time.

If you partner bids 2S, I think you have to pass. Very unlucky. If you had another point, though (let's say the Ks was the As), you could consider "patterning out" with 3C. Then you'll get to 5D.

After partner's actual 3D raise, I would try 4D, because partner ought to have a stiff spade, which combined with your stiff heart means that you should score at least two tricks more in diamonds than in NT.

Cheers,
Mike

[mcphee]

Most of the time partner will have 5 trumps for his raise with at most 2S. You may make 3N but the only reason to try that game is if you are playing pairs. You could be making 6D and advancing with 4C is rather clear to me.

[HardVector]

apollo1201, on 2018-July-25, 00:18, said:

Diamonds cramp up space bidding vs. Clubs, there are some ways to deal with it, but here?

You deal and open 1S at red IMPs, partner bids a (F) 1NT, you show your 2nd suit with 2D and partner supports your Ds at the 3rd level:
1S-1NT
2D-3D

Red IMPs, with the presumed 5-cd D suit opposite and good chances of running the suit, and overall nice values, you want to move now, but how...

K9xxx
x
AKxx
AJx

I punted 3NT. Partner didn’t escape the H lead, but she had Qx Axxx xxxxx Kx and played at top level to see that the D ran, and that the CQ was friendly that day.

Was there a better way to bid, though, and assess if 5D or maybe 4S were better?

Thanks!

After the forcing 1nt, raising diamonds should show 8-10 points (with a true invite, you are sort of stuck bidding 2n here), catering to a possible 16-18 point hand from opener. You have 15 which would be ambitious if you were looking to play in 3nt, but you have a really nice hand for a 5d contract factoring in hearts ruffs. I'm not sure I'd do anything over 3d, the point count says pass, but you have really good controls. I'd probably bid 4d to let partner know the game I'm looking for. With a stronger hand with a similar shape, I'd cuebid 3s and pull partner's presumed 3nt to 4d to show the interest in slam.