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3rd seat at favourable

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2018-June-04, 18:48



Board-a-match
North had 8 easy tricks on a spade lead and took 7 of them.
(He won Q at trick 2 to play A-another. In dummy with A, he ran J with some confidence but this proved an error.)

The auction has shades of Spain vs USA.
Does anyone have issues with the East-West actions?
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#2 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-June-05, 02:49

There are third in hand (at favourable vulnerability) openings and there are third in hand (at favourable vulnerability)openings. But it's just part of the modern game these days, I suppose...

When North overcalls 1NT with a top-heavy 18 count East isn't obliged to bid. Other partnerships may well have ended up in 3NT on the North-South cards and bemoaned their bad luck
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#3 User is offline   chrism 

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Posted 2018-June-05, 07:14

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-June-05, 02:49, said:

Other partnerships may well have ended up in 3NT on the North-South cards and bemoaned their bad luck

Bad luck? Two spades, at least one heart, three diamonds, at least three clubs.
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#4 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-June-05, 09:53

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-June-05, 02:49, said:

When North overcalls 1NT with a top-heavy 18 count East isn't obliged to bid. Other partnerships may well have ended up in 3NT on the North-South cards and bemoaned their bad luck

East doesn't know that North is top-heavy. There's certainly something suspicious about not doubling with a decent 9 count.

#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-June-05, 14:09

Does the RA not stipulate a minimum point count for 1-level opening bids? I think for example the EBU requires 8 HCP.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2018-June-05, 14:49

View Postahydra, on 2018-June-05, 14:09, said:

Does the RA not stipulate a minimum point count for 1-level opening bids? I think for example the EBU requires 8 HCP.

ahydra


This looks like a psychic bid, not an illegal agreement?
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#7 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2018-June-05, 16:04

View Postpran, on 2018-June-05, 14:49, said:

This looks like a psychic bid, not an illegal agreement?

In Holland you’re not allowed to open with less than 7HCP if you’re not playing at a pretty high level. This doesn’t look like a psych, but as an attempt to throw sand in the machine. That’s is not the problem, but that E seems to expect something like that is. It doesn’t look that the bid came as a complete surprise for E.
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#8 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2018-June-06, 00:30

View Postsanst, on 2018-June-05, 16:04, said:

In Holland you’re not allowed to open with less than 7HCP if you’re not playing at a pretty high level. This doesn’t look like a psych, but as an attempt to throw sand in the machine. That’s is not the problem, but that E seems to expect something like that is. It doesn’t look that the bid came as a complete surprise for E.

Well, the Director shall rule concealed partnership understanding rather than psyche if he finds that the partner seems to have more reason than the opponents to be aware of the deviation from disclosed partnership understanding.

Seemingly being the case here the Director doesn't even need to involve the 7HCP minimum strength regulation.
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#9 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2018-June-06, 03:34

View Postpran, on 2018-June-05, 14:49, said:

This looks like a psychic bid, not an illegal agreement?


You cannot judge this from one instance.
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I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-June-06, 03:45

View Postpran, on 2018-June-05, 14:49, said:

This looks like a psychic bid, not an illegal agreement?


And a potential field with what I think is a very good 9 count opposite (I'm surprised K&R gives it as little as 9.15 with the spade intermediates and KQ),
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#11 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2018-June-06, 05:23

I am certainly recording this as (potentially) a Concealed partnership agreement. Under EBU rules is would almost certainly be regarded as a 'red' psych (automatic AV+, AV- -10%). But the rules do not require proof of fielding, just that the player could have fielded the psych. Not sure how this would be regarded in Australia.

From EBU white book

"Players are required to disclose their agreements, both explicit and implicit. If a player believes, from partnership experience, that partner may have deviated from the system this must be disclosed to the opponents. If a player properly discloses this possibility, the player will not be penalised for fielding it, although there may be a penalty for playing an illegal method."

"The actions of the psycher’s partner following a psyche – and, possibly, further actions by the psycher himself – may provide evidence of an undisclosed, and therefore illegal, understanding. If so, then the partnership is said to have ‘fielded’ the psyche. The TD will judge actions objectively by the standards of a player’s peers; that is to say intent will not be taken into account.

As the judgement by the TD will be objective, some players may be understandably upset that their actions are ruled to be fielding. If a player psyches and their partner takes action that appears to allow for it then the TD will treat it as fielding.

A partnership’s actions on one board may be sufficient for the TD to find that it has a concealed partnership understanding (CPU) and the score will be adjusted in principle (see §1.4.4). This is classified as a red psyche."
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
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#12 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-June-06, 08:52

View Postweejonnie, on 2018-June-06, 05:23, said:

IAs the judgement by the TD will be objective, some players may be understandably upset that their actions are ruled to be fielding. If a player psyches and their partner takes action that appears to allow for it then the TD will treat it as fielding.

This is similar to the way Law 16 talks about actions after receiving UI. It doesn't require reading the player's mind to determine whether they actually the UI and acted on it. Instead, it defines LAs based on what the player's peers would consider, and then prohibits LAs that are demonstrably suggested by the UI.

A few weeks ago we had to explain this principle to a novice who made a questionable bid after her partner's hesitation. We weren't accusing her of doing anything wrong intentionally, just applying an objective standard based on what she could have noticed. If you do the same thing that an unethical player would do, you get the same ruling.

#13 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2018-June-06, 12:28

If East had not been a passed hand, I suspect there would be a lot more support for some kind of adjustment for a fielded psyche when a player with a flat, defensive nine-count fails to double a 1NT overcall. I seem to remember this dividing the English directing community some years ago, with some considering it routine for opener to have significantly shaded values for a third-in-hand opener, and others regarding it a cut-and-dried fielded psyche.

I don't think it's particularly relevant that opener has less than a regulation opening hand. If West had had the Q as well, it would have been a legitimate (although disclosable) opening bid by agreement, and East still would not want to be doubling.

I would want to know what agreements EW have for opening third-in-hand, whether this was typical for their style. (Of course, it would have to be on their convention card.)
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