[kwiktrix]

Consider the following auction over a 10-12 pt no-trump opening:

(1N) P (2♣) -> 2♣ is Stayman but your advance in this situation depends on whether a weak option is included - ie are they playing 'Garbage Stayman'.

As advancer, let's say you have a 14pt hand. You want to announce that to your partner by doubling 2♣ over a GS version of Stayman (ie expose the 2♣ bid as weak), but not over a strictly invitational version wherein you would pass (or double - showing clubs). But to find out, you have to ask - and the process of asking provides your partner with UI, since your Pass or Double will be impacted by the answer to your question.

How do I handle? How do you rule if I ask, then pass?

I suppose I could ask every declarer what their range is, and over weak notrumpers ask if they play garbage, but that seems over-the-top.

[mycroft]

If your action is going to depend on information that is not required to be given to you, then you'll have to ask. If you don't want to pass UI, you'll have to ask every time. I have two cases where that applies, and with an old partner, a third (we played "one-under-splinter doubles" and "non-lead-directing doubles of suits we own" with the former having priority over the latter; when the jump cue was in our suit, therefore, we would "always" need to know, so we would "always" need to ask. Failing to ask would "show" that we didn't want to direct a lead away from our suit or into the suit below ours; that's a massive amount of UI (and very rare); so we always asked).

Having said that, the last time I played against a pair playing 10-12 with Stayman promising values - well, it was me, 15 years ago, playing EHAA by the book. We alerted it, *because* it was INV+. If you find enough to feel you need to ask, can you let me know where?

I think in this particular case, you are in much better legal ground to assume that the 2♣ bidder could always have a zero-high three-suiter short in clubs, and decide to play double as cards, or decide that it's best to play it as clubs, and not put yourself in this issue.

The problem is not just "if you ask and pass" (yeah, that's a problem because you "tell" partner you have the other case, unless you do it EVERY TIME) but when you don't ask (where partner knows you don't care about the response; i.e. responder probably has stuff and you don't have clubs. That's just as much UI, even though you won't get called on it unless the opponents know your system from before.

[weejonnie]

Of course passing UI is not an offence - it happens on the majority of hands. It is up to partner not to take advantage of it. You should show confidence in your partner's ethics by asking. At worst, for you, he may be forced to reject the LA that is demonstrably suggested by your action. If it is a borderline decision I don't think a TD or AC is going to do anything other than adjust the score.

[mycroft]

The problem with this case is that you pass an equal amount of UI (if not more) when you don't ask, and the opponents have no way of knowing this.

In this case, failing to ask if 2♣ is forcing on responder would show both "not enough strength to care" and "not enough clubs to care". Partner can't use *that* UI either, but nobody's going to catch him if he does.

And, as I said, the last time I saw anyone play 2♣ after a 10-12 NT as anything *but* "asking about a 4-card major, may not care about the response, may pass any response" was when I did it back in 2002 or so. I think it would just be safe to say "double of responder's artificial action is cards". In fact, that's what my partner and I do (with any "weak" NT - "can't be 16").

[johnu]

kwiktrix, on 2017-January-19, 16:28, said:

I suppose I could ask every declarer what their range is, and over weak notrumpers ask if they play garbage, but that seems over-the-top.

I don't see a problem doing this. Just takes a couple of seconds (every round) and solves later problems.

Or just ask about Stayman every single time which also just takes a couple of seconds, but only when 1NT and Stayman are bid. I think I would ask about Stayman every time since this will only happen once or twice a session instead of every round.

[gordontd]

kwiktrix, on 2017-January-19, 16:28, said:

You want to announce that to your partner by doubling 2♣ over a GS version of Stayman (ie expose the 2♣ bid as weak),

You are never going to know at this stage of the auction that it IS weak, only that it might be.

I might change the meaning of the double depending on the strength of their NT but wouldn't have thought of doing it based on their continuations to Stayman - after all, even if playing it as invitational they might do it on a 4450 bust.

[Zelandakh]

gordontd, on 2017-January-22, 02:23, said:

after all, even if playing it as invitational they might do it on a 4450 bust.

In places where Stayman typically shows values it is common to use extended responses such as 2NT for both majors. This eliminates the usage of Exit Stayman. It does not seem reasonable to change defences based on whether this sort of scheme is used or not. Like you, I would be reluctant to trust Responder to hold values in all cases if the only possible rebids for Opener are 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠.

[mycroft]

And explicitly when I played EHAA Extended Stayman, that's exactly what could happen (2NT = both majors, would refuse a NT invitation; 3♣ = both majors, would accept a NT invitation).

I guess there are those who play 2♣ Puppet complete with 2NT "no 4cM". They also can't Garbage (at least, it's risky; that doesn't mean it hasn't been tried).

But again, I haven't seen this since I did it, mumblety years ago.

[helene_t]

I would just assume that it could be weak. After all, if the meaning of the double depends on the answer to your question, you will need to have a defence against wooly explanations like "I am not sure if we have discussed it explicitly but I think that ....".

IME, most pairs either know that it could be weak or haven't discussed it. Even if opener thinks it shows values, responder might still improvise with 4450, as Gordon says.

That all said, I also agree weejonnie that if you really need to know then you should just ask and don't worry.

In general, you can avoid such issues by asking for clarification as soon as you receive their CC. I sometimes ask how they open with 4M4m(32) hands, for the same reason.

[blackshoe]

helene_t, on 2017-January-24, 08:27, said:

as soon as you receive their CC

ROFL!!

Sorry, Helene, it's just that well, customs are different here.