[Oceanss]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-November-05, 13:03, said:

This post probably doesn't belong here and probably should be the start of another thread elsewhere, but I'm curious what experiences casual teachers have teaching on BBO.

Sorry, Kaitlyn, with all due respect, BUT YOUR previous post in this topic does not belong here, with all nice and long reply it got from Diana; while ignoring all questions previosly asked.
I am glad you had nice turn out for your lesson, but you likely do not know IAC and BIL hold weekly or so lessons with often 50+ students following. Most are continuous lessons as from Hondo or OliverC, that are going all year long.

barmar, on 2016-November-05, 13:14, said:

This doesn't affect new players at all. We stopped allowing new accounts to use the old version several years ago. So only people who have been members of BBO for more than 3 years are using the old version.

I know that new users must use web version. But killing old version will affect BBO_IAC announcing to members that certain lesson will be held at specific time and day. And we won't be able add newbies to a club. So it kills the club and it's purpose in the root.

MrAce, on 2016-November-05, 13:26, said:

Whether my decision was good or bad business wise, time will tell and I may actually end up losing money because of my decision. But I do not OWE anyone ANYTHING!

Awww, Mr Ace, you of all I respect most in forums.. You are SO RIGHT. BUT, but, we just must protest and whine, even if in vain, for having legs amputated?

[Kaitlyn S]

MrAce, on 2016-November-05, 13:26, said:

But I do not OWE anyone ANYTHING!

Anybody that has read my posts in the Water Cooler where I have recently taken over the position of most hated poster will not be the least bit surprised about what I am about to say:

MrAce is 100% right about this. They put up a product that we can use for free. They are entitled to do whatever they want with it. While for the sake of other bridge teachers that have the client, I would have liked to see a different decision, I totally respect their right to make any decision they want to.

[Kaitlyn S]

Oceanss, on 2016-November-05, 14:50, said:

Sorry, Kaitlyn, with all due respect, BUT YOUR previous post in this topic does not belong here, with all nice and long reply it got from Diana; while ignoring all questions previosly asked.

In theory, I agree. As a practical matter, I have to disagree.

For there are going to be other bridge teachers who have been using the client "forever" and may have the same question I do. And which thread are they going to be looking at? The one which tells them their functionality is going away! So they can Diana's answer here, or they can not read it because they guessed incorrectly in which forum I posted the question (or that anybody else asked at all), and post it again in another forum. I, for one, don't want to give Diana the extra work of answering the same question several times. Do you?

[diana_eva]

There will be more "official" replies coming to address the rest of the questions such as will there be no more rubber bridge, what happens to FD CCs, private clubs, stats, etc. For the time being we're collecting feedback, trying to understand what players would like to see on web that isn't already there.

As for the teaching thing, teaching on web is much easier and has a lot more tools than on the old version. You can upload a deal to a teaching table or to the hand editor from almost anywhere. The dealer is incredibly flexible.

What oceanss is referring to is private club management and organisation, not the act of setting up a teaching table.

[onoway]

diana_eva, on 2016-November-05, 16:08, said:

There will be more "official" replies coming to address the rest of the questions such as will there be no more rubber bridge, what happens to FD CCs, private clubs, stats, etc. For the time being we're collecting feedback, trying to understand what players would like to see on web that isn't already there.

As for the teaching thing, teaching on web is much easier and has a lot more tools than on the old version. You can upload a deal to a teaching table or to the hand editor from almost anywhere. The dealer is incredibly flexible.

What oceanss is referring to is private club management and organisation, not the act of setting up a teaching table.

One of the MAJOR disadvantages of the web client is the miniscule and confusing chat section. On the web client it is impossible to keep track and make notes to go with the hands, often it is impossible to read the first part of a comment if it goes on a bit, much less refer back to it. Some of the teachers use BBO voice, which is iffy, when it works it's fine but many times it seems not to work very well. Last week for example in one session, there were numerous complaints about static and echo; but in all cases voice leaves no trace.

This has been a disadvantage even when the teachers use a combination of voice and chat, which many do, to clarify a sequence, for example. If there is a pause and someone you know arrives in BBO, the first part of the comment is lost to the ether. It is the antithesis of useful for someone trying to learn. It may be easier for the teacher but only if the goal is to teach, not if it is to have students actually learn.

[onoway]

barmar, on 2016-November-05, 13:14, said:

This doesn't affect new players at all. We stopped allowing new accounts to use the old version several years ago. So only people who have been members of BBO for more than 3 years are using the old version.

But it does affect new players. it's not just what they can do but what we can do on download to enhance their experience on BBO such as arranging lessons and telling them about them, when and who and what. We will no longer be able to do that.

[onoway]

I will make one more comment. Giving something away or charging less than anyone else for a product and then charging for things on the back end, such as BBO has always done with Bridgemaster and GIBs etc, is a long accepted business model. Putting the competition out of business either by buying them out or simply overcoming them is normally the next step and that's one BBO took a while ago. Like Walmart. Now that it has a stranglehold on "the market" it can and is doing whatever it wants to. This is not the spirit of the BBO I joined a dozen or so years ago.

Like many others, I was happy to spend several hundred dollars over the years in BBO, because the value was there. I also was happy to promote it to everyone I knew who played bridge, and like countless others to volunteer hours of my time literally almost every week for the last 8 years trying to help some of the members have an experience which would resonate with and add value for them. I have no regrets or complaints about any of that. I can almost certainly guarantee that if BBO had started out with the web version, none of that would likely have happened.

It has been a reciprocal arrangement, not a one way street with BBO giving and everyone just taking and taking and then whining. So please don't tell me I have no right to protest when things go in a direction that I am forced to make a choice as to whether or not I will follow a path I find unpleasant and irritating.

I know that this is going to happen soon in any case. This is just sort of an expression of grief and anger at the loss of something I valued a lot.

[ahollan1]

barmar, on 2016-November-03, 13:24, said:

As announced here, we will be retiring the old, Windows version of BBO starting in February 2017. For users still using the old version, we understand this will be a shock to the system. We've created a guide that will hopefully help with the transition. We will also listen to serious requests about missing features. So if there's something that is really hindering your transition, here is your place to say something.

Please try to keep this to showstoppers. We're aware of the minor cosmetic differences, for instance.

my focus is absolutely on VUGRAPH

is there documentation that discusses impact on vugraph in a way that allows ability to assess from the perspective of:

a) organizer
b) operator
c) commentator
d) spectator

* features in windows that will not be available in browser
top on my list of concerns is loss of local lin file that can be edited to correct the historical record
* features in browser that are not available in windows - that are not currently available in browser
i.e. no need to mention voice commentary
* features that are only being considered for later releases
* features that are rejected from consideration

[1eyedjack]

onoway, on 2016-November-05, 19:47, said:

Giving something away or charging less than anyone else for a product and then charging for things on the back end, such as BBO has always done with Bridgemaster and GIBs etc, is a long accepted business model. Putting the competition out of business either by buying them out or simply overcoming them is normally the next step and that's one BBO took a while ago. Like Walmart. Now that it has a stranglehold on "the market" it can and is doing whatever it wants to. This is not the spirit of the BBO I joined a dozen or so years ago.

Suggesting base motives for the change is coming it a bit strong, I think. I seriously doubt that the presence or absence of competing sites featured. Fred et al have always been up front that BBO is a business that has to stand on its feet but have also consistently mixed that in with a philanthropic motive to protect the game.

That said, I have always considered it aesthetically regrettable that rubber is not offered as a format and at odds with the latter motive, despite that I would never play it myself so I do not complain about it. It is a bit like buying a collector's item LP that has a scratch on the B side that you don't want to play anyway.

[diana_eva]

onoway, on 2016-November-05, 17:47, said:

One of the MAJOR disadvantages of the web client is the miniscule and confusing chat section. On the web client it is impossible to keep track and make notes to go with the hands, often it is impossible to read the first part of a comment if it goes on a bit, much less refer back to it. Some of the teachers use BBO voice, which is iffy, when it works it's fine but many times it seems not to work very well. Last week for example in one session, there were numerous complaints about static and echo; but in all cases voice leaves no trace.

This has been a disadvantage even when the teachers use a combination of voice and chat, which many do, to clarify a sequence, for example. If there is a pause and someone you know arrives in BBO, the first part of the comment is lost to the ether. It is the antithesis of useful for someone trying to learn. It may be easier for the teacher but only if the goal is to teach, not if it is to have students actually learn.

Chat area can be resized on web, it's not a fix area. And you can go back as far as you need, chat scrolls back to whenever you logged on BBO. You are right however that the web version needs improvements when it comes to saving teaching sessions. It is much easier to set up and run a teaching session on web than on the older version, and that was what I was thinking about when "defending" web Saving it is not easy, and we've added this to the list of features missing on web.

[r_prah]

What about I (and other people) who have purchased Bridge Master, as well as several of the other paid softwares (Larry Cohen's LM Pairs, Larry Cohen's My Favorite 52, Right through the pack, etc)? Will the web version include a plan to have these softwares? Or will you be issuing refunds for the items purchased? Thanks in advance for an official response.

[scarletv]

diana_eva, on 2016-November-06, 06:46, said:

Saving it is not easy, and we've added this to the list of features missing on web.

Good news!

When teachers and players are able to download and upload hands it would be possible to build up a library for hands. That would be a great thing to have for both learning and teaching.

diana_eva, on 2016-November-06, 06:46, said:

Chat area can be resized on web, it's not a fix area. And you can go back as far as you need, chat scrolls back to whenever you logged on BBO.

Especially when your web is not as reliable as you would like it to be you are facing problems. For example there are sessions held by the German DBV but some of the teachers have frequently disconnections. This means you cannot save the hands as they disappear. When you yourself have a bad conn every time you are disconnected the chat is gone too.

[kenberg]

I'll cope. When I play I usually use the downloadable version, perhaps just because I am used to it. But I'll cope.

One feature of the downloadable that, last i heard, is not on the web version, and I will miss it: Looking up the hands others have played.

I can look up hands I have played, of course. But on the downloadable, anyone can look up the hands I have played. Presumably few want to exactly that, but I use this feature in two ways.

Sometimes I get a little suspicious. Someone makes a very odd play that works. I stay calm and, later, i look up some other hands he has payed. Almost always, i find that he often makes unusual moves and mostly they don't work. He just has an unusual style and sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't, no reason to get excited.

The more frequent reason is for kibbing. Yes, if i see an interesting hand for discussion with others I should save it. But sometimes I don't, but I wish later that I had. On the downloadable, I go to the review hands played and put in rfp or jec or whomever I am interested in and up come the hands.

I asked earlier about this and I was told I was right, this doesn't exist on the web version. too bad.

I have no wish to invade anyone's privacy. It should be easy enough to offer players an option that after their session is complete only the players can access the hand records, if they feel such a need. I don't feel such a need and I doubt jec pr rfp does either. I haven't asked of course, and it is far more likely someone wants ot look up thier hands than to look up mine, but it would be nice if we could.

[Here I had some meandering thoughts, now deleted]

[diana_eva]

The way you're looking up someone's hands on the old version is simply a shortcut to this page, which is not specific to the old version: http://www.bridgebas...hands/index.php

I don't understand the comment about robots and speed. The tournaments are exactly the same, no matter what version users are logging from.

Speedballs won't get slower for old version users, and there are no ACBL old-version-only tourneys either.

As for robots, there are more tourneys accessible on the web version, but all the other tournaments that are visible and accessible from old version exist as well. There is NO tourney that is old version specific only.

[kenberg]

Thanks for the link.

The other thoughts were just random musing. I deleted them in the interest of keeping the thread focused.

[diana_eva]

kenberg, on 2016-November-06, 11:54, said:

Thanks for the link.

The link to hand records and other useful links can be found at www.bridgebase.com (header and footer). Some of those are available inside the web version too, some are not. Perhaps that's why whoever answered your question about hand records didn't know that they exist outside of the old version.

[diana_eva]

ahollan1, on 2016-November-05, 21:45, said:

my focus is absolutely on VUGRAPH

is there documentation that discusses impact on vugraph in a way that allows ability to assess from the perspective of:

a) organizer
b) operator
c) commentator
d) spectator

* features in windows that will not be available in browser
top on my list of concerns is loss of local lin file that can be edited to correct the historical record
* features in browser that are not available in windows - that are not currently available in browser
i.e. no need to mention voice commentary
* features that are only being considered for later releases
* features that are rejected from consideration

Access to the old version will continue for vugraph operators for as long as necessary (ie, until a viable web alternative exists). Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative. Same for various categories of users who must use the older version, eg your aliases used to log lin files for the vugraph archives. Same for premium customers, if paying users strongly prefer to play on the older version they will be able to do so.

List of features that will be kept, considered, dumped is not final yet. That's the purpose of this thread, to collect feedback and put together a list of things old version users need and don't have on web.

[Kaitlyn S]

diana_eva, on 2016-November-06, 12:24, said:

Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative.

Is it possible that club managers can be given a subforum at BBO forums and use the limited time they have left on the client to make their club members aware of the existence of club information on these forums? Since I'm not a member of any BBO clubs, I'm not sure how much of a decline in functionality this would be, but it seems like it should be a workable solution.

[diana_eva]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-November-06, 12:52, said:

Is it possible that club managers can be given a subforum at BBO forums and use the limited time they have left on the client to make their club members aware of the existence of club information on these forums? Since I'm not a member of any BBO clubs, I'm not sure how much of a decline in functionality this would be, but it seems like it should be a workable solution.

You are confused about what exists on web and what not. There ARE private clubs on the web version. Members of private clubs are not affected in any way, they can still join classes, receive notices, etc.

Only private club managers are affected because they don't have the club management options on web (a set of tools they use to manage the club). This is a handful of people who can be granted access to the older version for as long as they need in order to maintain their club.

[barmar]

scarletv, on 2016-November-06, 07:32, said:

Especially when your web is not as reliable as you would like it to be you are facing problems. For example there are sessions held by the German DBV but some of the teachers have frequently disconnections.

The old version uses the network more heavily than the new version, mostly because it's frequently updating the list of everyone who's logged in (the new version only shows stars, yellows, and users you're following) and all the table and tourney lists (the web version gets these lists from the server only when you go to those screens) . So if you have a poor Internet connection, it's probably going to affect the old version more.