[frank0]

I create this new thread so that the discussion of the format of the future events (if any) and reporting the result of current event don't mix up.

LOOK AT MY RESPONSE BELOW (#3, #4)

Register the event at http://www.bridgebas...llenge-event-3/

Some thought,

Instead of seeding every round based on the current result, we should make a bracket in the beginning or at least 2nd round. I suggest use some modification of

http://cdn.acbl.org/...pendixB2016.pdf for seeding

and

http://cdn.acbl.org/.../Appendix-C.pdf for the structure of the first round, if we want this event to be pure KO.


I also think it's a good idea for longer match in late stage.

[ovncylmz]

seeding: we should possibly discuss this before the other event starts.. spingold system requires accumulation of points, we are just playing the 2nd tournament right now - may be tricky.. maybe we can go with something like 1st place 10, 2nd place 5, 3/4th 2, 5/8th 1 points and take average until 5th tournament, then start for accumulation.. like a masterpoint system..

bracket: looks standard..

[frank0]

Bump!

ALERT: THIS IS JUST A DRAFT. NOT AN OFFICIAL RULE. DO NOT REGISTER EVENT 3 HERE.
Let's discuss the rule of event 3 here (for the next 48 hrs after this draft is posted).

Basic Information (Must read)
-This is a single player bridge event base on BBO challenge format (IMP, non-best hand). The event is open, no entry fee, and no prize.

-One must register/cancel within the registration period, in some rare occasions late entry may be accepted to even the size of the groups.

-Participant who is not yet eliminated must see the announcement at least once every 24 hours.

-There will be two stages, the Group stage (Players split into groups and play Round Robin within the group) and the Knockout(KO) stage, see the detail in the Group/KO rule section.

-Each match in Group stage is scored by VP base on WBF continuous scale.

-Unfinished match: In KO stage, whoever responsible loses the match. In group stage, 5VP:5VP if both are responsible, 0VP:max(12VP, 20VP-opp's effective matches average) if one player is responsible. Fail to finish a match without notifying the public with legitimate reason=ban from participating next two events.

-People who cannot make it to KO will have an option to continue (for practice and small seeding point award for next events) in a consolidation swiss/RR with some carryover from group stage. The system will be explained after the group matches based on the number of participants.

Group/KO rule (Optional, participants do not have to read this, but must follow the announcement in BBF thread.)
-The Group stage rule depends on number of participants

- If there are 9~23 entrants, 8 people will play KO. If the number of entrants is divisible by 4, we'll form 4 groups of N, and top 2 of each group will play KO (4N rule). If not, we'll use 3N/3N+1/3N+2 rule depends on the remainder of P divided by 3. 3N~3N+2 rule advance to KO= top 2 of each group+(3N: 3rd of each group except the lowest VP one, 3N+1/3N+2: top VP 3rd of N+1 group and play off winner between the other two 3rd place).

-Adjustment for 25~63 entrants(16 will play KO): We'll use 8N/5N~5N+4 rule instead of 4N/3N~3N+2 rule. 8N=top 2 of each group advance, 5N~5N+4=top 3 each group plus (5N: top VP 4th, 5N+1: play off winner bet. 4th of N+1 and top VP 4th of N, 5N+2~5N+4: top VP 4th from N+1)

-Adjustment for 24 entrants: 4N rule, 16 play KO.

-Adjustment for 64+ entrants: hopefully not, may change the format to Spingold/Vanderbilt style pure KO.

- # of boards per match in group stage and play off: 16

- Group stage seeding of event number k (k=3 for this event): define seeded players=Top 2 of event k-1 and winner of event k-2, half-seeded players=Top 8 of event k-1, top 4 of event k-2, including all seeded players. Each group may contain at most 1 seeded player, different groups may not have # of half-seeded players difference by 2 or more. Other than these restrictions, players are assigned to each group randomly.

- KO seeding: rank by rank of group stage first, then by VP/match. In the case of 3N+1/3N+2: play off winner=#7, highest VP 3rd= #8.

-KO stage: standard bracket and seeding.

-# of boards in KO stage: 64

[frank0]

Possible changes suggested by people:

-# of boards

-IMP/MP

-Consider using swiss format?

-Better way to even the strength of bracket

-Possibility of running a long and accumulative non-best hand IMP/MP pair event.

-Detail of side/consolidation event

[shyams]

Although I may not reach the knockout phase , I feel 64 / 96 board matches will be too much.

If the round robin matches are (say) 24 boards split into two parts, then the knockout phase should probably be 36 boards with the final maybe 48 boards.

[frank0]

shyams, on 2016-September-17, 15:55, said:

Although I may not reach the knockout phase , I feel 64 / 96 board matches will be too much.

If the round robin matches are (say) 24 boards split into two parts, then the knockout phase should probably be 36 boards with the final maybe 48 boards.

In the previous event it was 32/48/64. Originally I think 48 & 64 is sufficient, but there are some arguments in event #2 where people think the factor of luck is still too much.

I'll adjust # of boards if more people think the matches are too long.

[cherdano]

I am worried about the logistics of the group matches. I.e., I think it will be quite likely that some of these matches won't happen because someone goes AWOL.
That doesn't mean group stages are wrong, it just means you need to agree in advance clearly what happens when one contestant drops out. (Do all their prior results get discarded? Does it mean a "N+1" group now counts as a "N" group for KO purposes?)

Then you'll need to do a better job than the WBF of enforcing your own rules. Sorry that's a low blow, of course you'll do a better job than the WBF.

[frank0]

cherdano, on 2016-September-17, 17:32, said:

I am worried about the logistics of the group matches. I.e., I think it will be quite likely that some of these matches won't happen because someone goes AWOL.
That doesn't mean group stages are wrong, it just means you need to agree in advance clearly what happens when one contestant drops out. (Do all their prior results get discarded? Does it mean a "N+1" group now counts as a "N" group for KO purposes?)

Then you'll need to do a better job than the WBF of enforcing your own rules. Sorry that's a low blow, of course you'll do a better job than the WBF.

Currently what I set in group stage is,

For non-finishing match,
1 player responsible = 0VP:12VP
both players responsible = 5VP:5VP
and drop out w/o notification=ban for next 2 events

therefore, the score board will be filled regardless, and N+1 group and N group will stay the same.

The 0:12 and 5:5 rule is copied from World University Online Team Championship, let me know if you have better idea.

[frank0]

frank0, on 2016-September-17, 17:41, said:

Currently what I set in group stage is,

For non-finishing match,
1 player responsible = 0VP:12VP
both players responsible = 5VP:5VP
and drop out w/o notification=ban for next 2 events

therefore, the score board will be filled regardless, and N+1 group and N group will stay the same.

The 0:12 and 5:5 rule is copied from World University Online Team Championship, let me know if you have better idea.

I was suggested by people if a player gets angry and drops out after 2:18, 3:17 etc. assigning 12 to the remaining opponents is not fair, I change it to max(12, 20-the drop out player's average of the matches (s)he plays).

[frank0]

Add adjustment of high # of entries.

[smerriman]

frank0, on 2016-September-17, 12:14, said:

- Play off will be 12 boards.
-# of boards per match in a group of M: the integer that is closet to 64/(M-1)

I think the number of boards should always be a multiple of 16. Virtually all of the 'time' involved in a match is between issuing the challenge / accepting the challenge / waiting for the other person to complete the challenge, not the amount of time to complete the set of boards itself.

Since BBO lets you play up to 16 boards at a time, 12 boards will take the same amount of time as 16, and 24 will take the same amount of time as 32, for example. The more boards the more accurate the result, so it should always be rounded up to a multiple of 16.

[frank0]

smerriman, on 2016-September-18, 15:54, said:

I think the number of boards should always be a multiple of 16. Virtually all of the 'time' involved in a match is between issuing the challenge / accepting the challenge / waiting for the other person to complete the challenge, not the amount of time to complete the set of boards itself.

Since BBO lets you play up to 16 boards at a time, 12 boards will take the same amount of time as 16, and 24 will take the same amount of time as 32, for example. The more boards the more accurate the result, so it should always be rounded up to a multiple of 16.

I'm OK with this (16n bds each match), I might have to smaller the group size though, so we don't have to play, for example, 16bdx10matches in the case of 33 entrants(11 player x 3group).

Let me lower the cut-off of 8N/5N~5N+4 rule to 25 entrants.

[smerriman]

How will the round robin be conducted? Given the way challenges work, you don't necessarily need to wait for each round to complete before playing the next - you could issue challenges to multiple opponents (I believe you're allowed up to 10 friend challenges at once?) and play them as soon as they're accepted.

This would be far faster / ideal, but would muddy the waters in terms of what it means to fail to finish a match.

[frank0]

smerriman, on 2016-September-18, 18:01, said:

How will the round robin be conducted? Given the way challenges work, you don't necessarily need to wait for each round to complete before playing the next - you could issue challenges to multiple opponents (I believe you're allowed up to 10 friend challenges at once?) and play them as soon as they're accepted.

This would be far faster / ideal, but would muddy the waters in terms of what it means to fail to finish a match.

After the registration end, I'll let people to have about 10~14 days to finish one challenge with all other players within the same group (at any time/order they prefer).

Score can and should be reported (with link to hand) as soon as the match is finished, and it'll be updated to score board by me within 24 hrs.

You can also report the situation of an unfinished match toward the end of that period, so we'll know who is the one that is responsible. I'll write more detail tomorrow.