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5/7 theory

#1 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-06, 17:24



IMPs, Partner has shown 8+ with 2245 shape, and we have all keycards. (Ace+King)

Now I have basically 3 options:

Blast 7 and hope K is not on the left
Ask a lot of questions and end up in 6 if partner doesn't hold K
Ask specific questions and end up in 5 if partner has no major King.

What do you think its best?
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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-July-06, 18:02

What methods are your opponents playing? Do you know for sure partner can't be well stocked in spades and diamonds?
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#3 User is offline   robert2734 

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Posted 2016-July-06, 18:36

If I was losing or the underdog in the match I'd blast 7 .
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-06, 19:08

What will partner tell me next if I just generally continue asking non specific questions ? Would be sad to find out pd had no major king, I signed off in 5 and he had KQ for example or QJ. KQ makes 7.

Opening leader is as likely to have KQ as KQ if partner has none of those cards, so even if a spade lead will beat 6 you're far from certain to get it if you don't telegraph the problem.

I don't think I'm signing off in 5, I'll probably enquire some more and bid 6 without K, 7 with it unless I hear about KQ.

Agree if I'm behind in the match, just bid 7.
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-06, 20:16

I think Cyber nailed it.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-06, 23:45

Yes, asking everything you will find everything except jacks. But chances of finding partner with KQ or KQ are very low.

This was a training session Phil it is just a theoric question, if you should try to play 6 on 5/7 hands when opponents are leading blind.
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-07, 04:32

Can I not bid 4 to ask about specific kings and follow up with 5 as an SSA in diamonds if K and no major suit king is held? That would seem to cover all of the main possibilities. We have at least an entire extra level of space by starting RKCB with 3 - it would seem to be a shame not to use it somehow.
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#8 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-July-07, 07:28

The reason I ask is because if I think my opponents arent likely to get to 6 that bidding a small slam could still be right.

All the opening leader knows is that responder has this shape and this strength. They can infer opener has a good hand and some club support and not diamonds, but with dummy hitting with 2245 the diamond tricks probably arent going away unless declarer has a deep trick source in a major.

Accordingly, you're getting a heart lead away from the king a lot here which is great for 6 but lousy for 7.
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#9 User is offline   WGF_Flame 

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Posted 2016-July-07, 07:48

6 clubs cant be a bad contract (finesse heart twice and make), so get the information about K hearts.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-07, 08:09

View PostWGF_Flame, on 2016-July-07, 07:48, said:

6 clubs cant be a bad contract (finesse heart twice and make), so get the information about K hearts.


Except that on a spade lead, it can be just as good as 7
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#11 User is offline   robert2734 

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Posted 2016-July-07, 10:48

View PostFluffy, on 2016-July-06, 23:45, said:

a theoric question, if you should try to play 6 on 5/7 hands when opponents are leading blind.


On a hand that will make 5 or 7 depending on a finesse, shouldn't you try to be in 5 or 7? What is the theoric reason for trying to play in 6?
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-07, 12:07

View Postrobert2734, on 2016-July-07, 10:48, said:

On a hand that will make 5 or 7 depending on a finesse, shouldn't you try to be in 5 or 7? What is the theoric reason for trying to play in 6?


Because 6 is cold if they fail to lead a spade or partner has QJ and good if partner has Q as 2 cards have to be wrong.

You have the advantage in the relay auction that nothing is known about declarer's hand so the lead is not obvious. You've already gone from 50:50 to something well above that for the small slam just on the chance of the wrong lead.
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#13 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-08, 01:33

I could ask for K , K and Q, playing 6 when dummy has Q but 7 when he doesn't have it.

But I starting to think in the long run this decisions will tend to even out and no approach is clearly better.
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-08, 05:01

View PostFluffy, on 2016-July-08, 01:33, said:

I could ask for K , K and Q, playing 6 when dummy has Q but 7 when he doesn't have it.

But I starting to think in the long run this decisions will tend to even out and no approach is clearly better.


I suspect the approach you outline is double dummy correct, but the chance of getting the wrong lead means bidding 6 is best.

A little aside question.

Against a relay auction like this, say the Q is shown by the bid of a red suit. Should double say "lead the suit doubled" or "lead a spade" ?
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#15 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-10, 18:07

It is extremely rare for a queen to be asked when we don't have the king ourselves so I think it wouldn't be good, at least against us.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-10, 18:57

View PostFluffy, on 2016-July-10, 18:07, said:

It is extremely rare for a queen to be asked when we don't have the king ourselves so I think it wouldn't be good, at least against us.


If specifically asked I agree, I was talking about if you're just asking general questions and it's the next card on the list to show.
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#17 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2016-July-19, 14:26

32 32 AJ32 K5432 what contract do you want to be in opposite this hand (a dead min for the bidding) IMPS IMHO 6c is the place to be unless there is some specific reason we suspect a spade lead. IF we suspect a spade lead IMHO we should bid SEVEN clubs not 5 at IMPS. +17 imps when we make -13 when we lose and it is 5050. Those are great odds in anyone's game over a lifetime.

If we are behind it is just as useful to stop in 5 as it is to bid 7 (hoping for a big swing) so take your best guess and go with it though bidding the grand is much more likely to produce the largest swing (maybe even x/xx).
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