BBO Discussion Forums: Double trouble - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Double trouble

Poll: Double trouble (29 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you bid now ?

  1. Pass (4 votes [13.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

  2. Double (5 votes [17.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.24%

  3. 4S (20 votes [68.97%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 68.97%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   wanoff 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 2012-February-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham,UK

Posted 2016-June-11, 03:44

Overcalls - NV not ridiculous, Vul sound, WJOs


Are you happy with the double of 3. What does it mean ?
And what now at MPs
0

#2 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,033
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-June-11, 05:10

The classic meaning is a responsive double showing the unbid suits. 3 hearts to the 10 is not what I would consider to be a "suit" worth mentioning, especially when you have A102. I would have bid 4 originally.
3

#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,103
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2016-June-11, 06:04

I would have bid 4S last time.
0

#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Joined: 2008-June-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-June-11, 08:44

The double followed by 4 by the opener just gave them extra info to decide to dive over 4 when it is right.

I would have bid 4 the first time.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
0

#5 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2016-June-11, 21:49

View Postwanoff, on 2016-June-11, 03:44, said:


Overcalls - NV not ridiculous, Vul sound, WJOs
Are you happy with the double of 3. What does it mean ?
And what now at MPs?
After (1) 1 (3) ??
  • Pass = Nat
  • Double = NEG. Usually 4. But agree with wanoff that it's OK here when you can correct 4 to 4.
  • 3 = NAT. F/1. 5+
  • 3 = NAT.
  • 3N = NAT
  • 4 = NAT, F/1. 5+
  • 4 = CUE. 4+
  • 4 = FIT
  • 4 = PRE

Now I rank

  • 4 = NAT Descriptive.
  • Double = NEG. Risky since opponents may have a double-fit in the red suits. Also, partner may read it as 4+ and 5+ .
  • Pass = NAT Pusilanimous.

0

#6 User is offline   nekthen 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 534
  • Joined: 2008-September-21

Posted 2016-June-12, 05:26

Sorry guys but surely double is a support dbl showing 3 card support and a decent hand. Now I double again. I think its going down p but if you have a good offensive hand feel free to bid 4 spades
Its not a responsive double. That is if p had doubled on round 1. It is not a negative double, that is when it is partner who opened.
An immediate 3 spades would be same strength but with 4 card support.
0

#7 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2016-June-12, 05:40

I think it a minority treatment to play support doubles after a 3 level overcall. And at a lower level it does not show extras.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#8 User is offline   robert2734 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 106
  • Joined: 2016-February-16

Posted 2016-June-12, 07:44

Support with support. Bid 4 the first time. Over 4 , you can take the sure profit by doubling or bid 4 which may not make. My guess is 4 .
0

#9 User is offline   notproven 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: 2016-April-24
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA

Posted 2016-June-12, 08:29

It looks as if the original double was "cards". If you check the convention cards on this site, support doubles stop at 2. I'd guess that South was trying to get a Drury-like response from North (bid game with extras, pass with a hand that North wouldn't have opened in first seat). I definitely wouldn't call this double responsive. Therefore, I'd guess that South would then pass 4.

Pure conjecture, don't assume I have the slightest idea what was in South's head.

Not how I'd bid with an unfamiliar partner. I'd bid 4 over 3.
0

#10 User is offline   francosca 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: 2007-March-24

Posted 2016-June-12, 09:19

View Postnekthen, on 2016-June-12, 05:26, said:

Sorry guys but surely double is a support dbl showing 3 card support and a decent hand. Now I double again. I think its going down p but if you have a good offensive hand feel free to bid 4 spades
Its not a responsive double. That is if p had doubled on round 1. It is not a negative double, that is when it is partner who opened.
An immediate 3 spades would be same strength but with 4 card support.

I agree.... it is a support DBL.... and to the comment that follows the 3 was not an over-call, but a preemptive raise of opener bid
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent
about things that matter! (Martin Luther King Jr.).....

Keep fighting for HEALTH CARE for ALL !
0

#11 User is offline   Caitlynne 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 238
  • Joined: 2015-October-09

Posted 2016-June-12, 11:15

There are two alternative ways to play the double of 3D that are currently in vogue. One is a "responsive double" - showing values and interest in the unbid suits. The other is a "cue bid double" showing good values for the level in combination with good 3 card support for overcaller's suit.

If you play the responsive double, you cannot double 3D. That strongly suggests 4 hearts, about 10+ HCP, and a doubleton spade. That is not even close to what you have in two respects: (1) you don't have four hearts (and not even 3 good ones) and (2) you have genuine and good spade support. So, playing responsive doubles, you have to bid some number of spades - probably 3S but 4S is not unreasonable.

If you play the cue bid double, you have an ideal hand for it: good 3 card support and good values to support the auction level (i.e., the 3-level). And now, you have an easy bid: Double, giving partner the option to bid game or defend.

If you play responsive doubles, you are toast now - you are guessing - and, indeed, you had cooked your goose at your first turn.
0

#12 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 737
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2016-June-12, 13:58

View Postnige1, on 2016-June-11, 21:49, said:

After (1) 1 (3) ??
  • Pass = Nat
  • Double = NEG. Usually 4. But agree with wanoff that it's OK here when you can correct 4 to 4.
  • 3 = NAT. F/1. 5+
  • 3 = NAT.
  • 3N = NAT
  • 4 = NAT, F/1. 5+
  • 4 = CUE. 4+
  • 4 = FIT
  • 4 = PRE

Now I rank

  • 4 = NAT Descriptive.
  • Double = NEG. Risky since opponents may have a double-fit in the red suits. Also, partner may read it as 4+ and 5+ .
  • Pass = NAT Pusilanimous.



A number of your descriptions are not correct

Double is not "negative" here. Standard expert is responsive.

A 4d cue bid does not promise 4 pieces. You can't be that precise in high level competitive auctions. 3 card support is fine. This hand almost qualifies but not quite. I wish we had three diamonds At least then we know partner has at most 1. This way they are apt to be 2-2.

4S is in no way preemptive. You never preempt over a preempt. A good rule of thumb that actually works is this: if the bid on your right was strong, a jump by you is weak (unless it has a conventional meaning). If the bid on your right was weak, then a jump by you is strong. Here 4s is a good hand but not as good as 4d

I would bid 4s the first time if playing responsive doubles, because there's no good way to invite game and because I have no clue what to do over 4d at MPs. At least I give the opponents the last guess. I know exactly what to do if they bid 5d.

Cheers,
Mike
0

#13 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 737
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2016-June-12, 14:03

View Postfrancosca, on 2016-June-12, 09:19, said:

I agree.... it is a support DBL.... and to the comment that follows the 3 was not an over-call, but a preemptive raise of opener bid


Support Xs are at the level of 2h or lower and are always made by opener to show 3 pieces in responders suit. They are never made by responder, over caller, or advancer

Some folks play this X as dual meaning. That is, it's either responsive or else a good hand (not good enough force game) with three card support. That treatment works well, UNLESS the opponents are rude enough to keep bidding.
1

#14 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,971
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2016-June-12, 15:27

I read a lot of poor understanding of support doubles in this topic.
I strongly suggest those who thinks this is support dbl to read what Miamijd wrote.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





0

#15 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2016-June-12, 15:31

View Postfrancosca, on 2016-June-12, 09:19, said:

I agree.... it is a support DBL....
Feel free to edit the Wikipedia page. That is one of the beauties of the collaborative principle behind Wikipedia.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#16 User is online   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,224
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-June-12, 17:08

I'm fine with the double of 3D. In theory, it shows hearts and clubs. That's if you have checked responsive doubles on your card. But, as already noted, if X is followed be P-3H-P you can bid 3S. Imo, that would be ideal. (1D)-1S-(3D)-4S could be misleading. You could do that with four or five spades, some shape, and not much else. Now that they have come in with 4D, I can no longer do as I had hoped. The fifth club convinces me to bid on.

Now, if they go on to 5D (they might, who knows), my double will be much clearer in meaning than if I had bid an original 4S.

Anyway, the question was what do I do on the auction as given. I bid 4S.
Ken
0

#17 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2016-June-13, 01:52

I guess I am old fashioned, but I would have bid 4S first time around, particularly with an unfamiliar partner. It puts maximum pressure on oppo, and you will know what to do if they go to the five level. Partner should not bid on in front of you unless he has a very distributional hand.

As Terrence Reece said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword." Playing 4S as a pre-empt in this position merely tells oppo that it is safe for them to go on.
0

#18 User is offline   mdgraham 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 11
  • Joined: 2008-October-15

Posted 2016-June-13, 04:13

It's only a support double if you have agreed this with partner; no mention is made of this agreement so presumably it doesn't exist. So double just shows cards, hopefully 13 of them and hopefully some with pictures on them.

The problem now is that you have no idea of the kind of hand that partner can have. 4S could be playable or just plain silly, and 4D could be close to making or down a couple. Which is one argument for bidding 4S directly - you have made your decision (aka "guess") and the opponents now have to decide what to do. Doubling 5D, if it is bid, looks reasonable.

However, that is not now the problem. It would help to know partner's overcalling style here. 4S is entirely reasonable at this point, but if partner is known to make, er, enterprising overcalls, it may well be right to pass. Give partner KJxxx Kxxx xx xx, and on BBO we have all seen players bid 1S on less, 4D could be close.
0

#19 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,660
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2016-June-13, 07:09

bidding 4s right away just does not make much sense since that kind of bid is preemptive. Starting with the neg x and later raising spades at least lets p know you have power for your bidding and who knows where that kind of information might lead us. the bidding will give p a strong clue as to how to play the hand and their HCP rate to be positionally improved while ours remain unaffected by postion. This makes a game "gamble" a much better proposition opposite a minimum overcall. If the opps do bid 5d it might be nice for p to have a say in the proceddings which they will never have if we bgin with 4s immediately.
0

#20 User is online   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,224
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2016-June-13, 07:11

View PostGrahamJson, on 2016-June-13, 01:52, said:

I guess I am old fashioned, but I would have bid 4S first time around, particularly with an unfamiliar partner. It puts maximum pressure on oppo, and you will know what to do if they go to the five level. Partner should not bid on in front of you unless he has a very distributional hand.

As Terrence Reece said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword." Playing 4S as a pre-empt in this position merely tells oppo that it is safe for them to go on.


I remember that phrase. If I recall correctly, he was speaking of agreements such as a player never having an outside Ace when pre-empting. I agree with reese on that. Not that TR cares one way or another whether I agree with him.

But here I think, after (1D)-1S-(3D) that I would like to indicate, if possible, that while 4S may be right it is also very possible that no one can make 4 of anything. Doubling and correcting 3H to 3S should do it. After this, partner can raise to 4S if his hand is suitable. He would be much more reluctant to do so if I just bid 3S.

So that's why I choose X over 3D instead of 3S over 3D, but of course you are speaking of 4S over 3D. As mentioned above, it does indeed depend on just what can be expected of partner for his 1S bid. Certainly others out there overcall 1S on hands where I would not, but I think there are hands where I would overcal 1S and still not have much of a play for ten tricks here. So that is my main reason for not bidding 4S right away. But I also think I would like a fourth spade to to bid 4S. I have often expressed skepticism about LOTT, and I make no claim that we know the total number of spades we have here or the total number of diamonds they have, but I still would like a fourth spade for my immediate jump to 4S.

So then why not pass or X the 4D? I like that fifth club on offense and I dislike it on defense.
Ken
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users