[wank]

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who forgot to bid? imps

before you take the piss, this was 2 international players.

[billw55]

Tough. Either player has a plausible (but not clear) action - 2NT by north, 4♥ by south. At this vulnerability, a preempt and a raise below game is practically a red flag for a bull but ... still tough.

I'd say some blame for both, maybe a bit more for south who knew about the raise. Certainly the deal is worth a discussion but not an argument.

edit: hmm, 4♥ may not make. 3NT looks cold but only north can get that ball rolling ... and could even go down on a diamond lead. Upshot, still tough, but feeling less bad about it.

[gszes]

I do not think I could resist 2s x. The 4 quick tricks are just a bit too much to consider an original pass even with less than ideal distribution (I would choose x vs 2n). After deciding to pass I have the feeling it is probably right to back in with 3n. We expect partner to be short in spades and to have around 8-12 hcp and feeling frozen out of the bidding due to the level, vulnerability and passed partner. Some blame seems headed in the south direction since p is surely marked with some power and the solid heart suit should keep the damage to a minimum if indeed we get overboard. 4h seems very reasonable. The problem comes after 4h can N (having passed 4 (count em) quick tricks find a pass. It may be difficult and I can see getting too high after a 4s cue. Overall I would apportion N 85% south 15% and feel N might easily bear more of the burden here.

[gnasher]

The only hand that might act is South, but I probably wouldn't.

If South does act, I think he should double, as 3NT may play well.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2016-April-22, 13:05

[eagles123]

meh preempts work

[Phil]

Both should act IMO

[eagles123]

Phil, on 2016-April-22, 15:29, said:

Both should act IMO

I sort of feel like its the kind of hand where both could act but no-one has done anything outrageously wrong. On a different layout we could be discussing a hand when acting had gone badly wrong.

[Jinksy]

I would not be tempted to act on North's hand. It can go horribly wrong, and P can see the vulnerability too. I have little preference between pass, X or 4♥ on the south hand.

[rmnka447]

Hard hand, but I think North needs to act. So I'm sort of thinking along gszes's line about a double.

I can't place any blame on South for passing after the 3 ♠ raise. The raise isn't necessarily weak, so rolling out 4 ♥ isn't risk free.

[nige1]

wank, on 2016-April-22, 11:47, said:

who forgot to bid? imps. before you take the piss, this was 2 international players.

---

The passes are plausible but I feel that South, with ♠ shortage might pre-balance. I prefer 4♥ but if South doubles, then North might pass.

[fourdad]

I teach and use the 3S bid regularly because of hands just like this.

[nekthen]

i think north has to act in pass out position. no argument with previous passes. I vote double. I think that should describe a hand like this. Unable to double or bid 2N on previous round partner can bid or pass.

[neilkaz]

nekthen, on 2016-April-23, 07:59, said:

i think north has to act in pass out position. no argument with previous passes. I vote double. I think that should describe a hand like this. Unable to double or bid 2N on previous round partner can bid or pass.

Yeah, I think N has to take a chance and X in P/O seat. Very tough problem and any action at any time could result in a great board or a disaster.

[Fluffy]

Neither has a bid IMO

[Cyberyeti]

neilkaz, on 2016-April-23, 09:51, said:

Yeah, I think N has to take a chance and X in P/O seat. Very tough problem and any action at any time could result in a great board or a disaster.

So the other thread where N doubles and S has xx, Qxxx, Qxxx, xxx and we're ATBing the 800 against a partscore ...

I don't think either has an action here but agree it's close.

[SteveMoe]

North stays silent first.
South? I might call if IMPs, else pass.
Does North reopen with a double? Still thinking....

[msjennifer]

A very tough hand indeed.N cannot double because it is always a take out double,usually,showing strength plus a four card honor headed support for hearts or could be a monster with double suited one.It almost never shows this type of hand.As for S ,holding this hand AND knowing fully well that East is preempting ,I can say that he has a very agonising decision to take before passing.15 percent blame for not bidding 4 hearts and the rest 85 percent to the circumstances.

[WesleyC]

I think most people have their analysis backwards on hands like this. South's choice to pass 3S, with a doubleton spade and a great holding in hearts is too big a risk.

Although bidding will sometimes turn a positive score into a negative one (for a partscore loss), the potential upside is huge. Game could easily be making and even if it isn't, the opponents might take a phantom save.

The other main point in favour of bidding is that almost everyone is too predictable with their 3S bids. You can trust them to have less than game interest and spade support. Given how strong your hearts are, you will almost always be able to escape to 4H and not get doubled.

[mycroft]

North has a brilliant 14. Is it 15 enough to bid 2NT? Eek. Is it a good enough hand to double? Also eek - I have a pancake hand and the most common result is going to be 3♥ on the moysian with ruffs in the long hand - if I'm really lucky, after partner advertises a weak hand with 2NT.

South? Well, it's a really nice hand, but give North the same hand without the ♣A (not unreasonable, surely?) and it's club, club ruff, spade to the A, and we still have the offside diamond and the trump ace to lose. 6=3=3=1? could be - now we have the trump A and another ruff to lose. Even the club K with East looks bad.

If you bid with these hands - and it's juicy to do so, especially favourable at IMPs - you deal with the fact that it's juicy for the other side, too. They don't even have to double - -200 -110 (or -140) isn't that many fewer IMPs than -500 -110.

But I'm well known as a pessimist on these forums.

[paulg]

wank, on 2016-April-22, 11:47, said:

before you take the piss, this was 2 international players.

Club players rarely get these wrong.