[Liversidge]

My partner and I are slowly adding new conventions to our system. We have looked at Lebensohl but put it on the backburner for now as it is rather complicated and doesn't come up often, and we have enough to be getting on with.
Today we had this hand (I was South):

---

What options are there? I assume a double is reserved for a hand where you expect to score better by penalising rather than for takeout, and any other bid seems like a stab in the dark that could go badly wrong, but we have 22-24 points between us. Would you bid 3♥, or would you pass?

(My cribsheet on Lebensohl says that with an invitational hand with a 4 card major but no stop I should pass.)

[kuhchung]

Double is either penalty or takeout, depending on partnership agreement.

Regardless, you can play a cuebid as Stayman. Hopefully that isn't too complex

[Liversidge]

 kuhchung, on 2015-December-01, 13:05, said:

Double is either penalty or takeout, depending on partnership agreement.

Regardless, you can play a cuebid as Stayman. Hopefully that isn't too complex

On my Lebensohl cribsheet a direct Cuebid Stayman is only for gamegoing hands with a stop, because otherwise if partner does not have four card support you end up in 3NT with possibly just 23 HCP.

I will discuss the meaning of the double with my partner, thanks.

[kuhchung]

Oh sorry, I thought this was a strong NT and we had an unequivocal game force.

It looks like you are just going to have to guess: force to game or pass.

[1eyedjack]

 Liversidge, on 2015-December-01, 12:56, said:

I assume a double is reserved for a hand where you expect to score better by penalising rather than for takeout

I think that is a fairly old fashioned view, although it certainly still has a following and may remain superior in a rubber setting

[Liversidge]

 kuhchung, on 2015-December-01, 13:51, said:

Oh sorry, I thought this was a strong NT and we had an unequivocal game force.

It looks like you are just going to have to guess: force to game or pass.

My mistake. I should have said we play Acol Weak NO Trump.

[Liversidge]

 kuhchung, on 2015-December-01, 13:51, said:

Oh sorry, I thought this was a strong NT and we had an unequivocal game force.

It looks like you are just going to have to guess: force to game or pass.

Does the "double for takeout / penalty subject to agreement" not still apply over a weak No Trump. I asked the club director what she would have taken my double to mean and she thought about it for a bit and then said the same - either, subject to agreement. I think I'd prefer to play safe and use it for takeout, as I suspect that situation is more likely to arise, but I am guessing here.

[steve2005]

 Liversidge, on 2015-December-01, 14:06, said:

Does the "double for takeout / penalty subject to agreement" not still apply over a weak No Trump. I asked the club director what she would have taken my double to mean and she thought about it for a bit and then said the same - either, subject to agreement. I think I'd prefer to play safe and use it for takeout, as I suspect that situation is more likely to arise, but I am guessing here.

Takeout or Pen again subject to agreement,
At club level a lot of weak NT people like penalty as some people overcall on garbage.


You can still collect a penalty playing takeout in two ways
Responder makes a negative double which opener can convert to PEN with 4 good trump
or opener can balance with a double much as you would have if you had opened a minor and been overcalled. Responder can then pass this for PEN, This is not without risk

[Cyberyeti]

I think if you're not playing Lebensohl (which you should play some form of in lots of sequences not all starting with 1N), you should agree T/O X here. A lot of penalty Xs can be expressed by NT raises, you don't have a bid for the takeout Xs if X is pens.

[helene_t]

For strong-notrumpers, the penalty double has gone out of fashion but for weak-notrumpers I think it has merits.

I would advice beginners to play it as take-out. The reason is that if you play it as penalty there is a risk that partner will assume certain undiscussed low-level doubles to be penalty by analogy. It is probably best to have the principle that undiscussed doubles (which could be either take-out or penalty) are take-out.

FWIW take-out is the non-alertable meaning in the EBU.

[jmcilkley]

 Liversidge, on 2015-December-01, 12:56, said:

My partner and I are slowly adding new conventions to our system. We have looked at Lebensohl but put it on the backburner for now as it is rather complicated and doesn't come up often, and we have enough to be getting on with.
Today we had this hand (I was South):

---

What options are there? I assume a double is reserved for a hand where you expect to score better by penalising rather than for takeout, and any other bid seems like a stab in the dark that could go badly wrong, but we have 22-24 points between us. Would you bid 3♥, or would you pass?

(My cribsheet on Lebensohl says that with an invitational hand with a 4 card major but no stop I should pass.)

You don't have enough to double or bid at the 3 level so pass is the only possible action. Even if you did learn Lebensohl (which isn't that difficult really and well worth a bit of effort then pass would still be the only sensible action. Double would show 11 points and you only have 10. Bidding anything is just a gamble.

[Caitlynne]

The standard "Goren" bid with that hand is 3S (i.e., a cue bid of the opponent's overcalled suit) which is played as Stayman asking for 4 card length in hearts (i.e., the unbid major). Partner is expected to bid 4H with heart length and usually 3NT otherwise.

Playing Lebensohl, you have more options. You could proceed as above or you may first bid 2NT (as a puppet to 3C) and then follow-up with the cue bid of 3S. Both auctions are typically played as Stayman, asking for a 4 card (unbid) major. However, most partnerships use the flexibility of Lebensohl to distinguish responding Stayman hands with and without the opponent's suit stopped. Most say that going slow (through the Lebensohl 2NT) shows the stopper and going fast (bidding 3S immediately) denies a spade stopper.

[Charlie Yu]

If 3S is stayman then there is not much merit for X to be takeout.

[eagles123]

 jmcilkley, on 2015-December-02, 07:08, said:

You don't have enough to double or bid at the 3 level so pass is the only possible action. Even if you did learn Lebensohl (which isn't that difficult really and well worth a bit of effort then pass would still be the only sensible action. Double would show 11 points and you only have 10. Bidding anything is just a gamble.

what nonsense, especially at MP which is what the OP is likely to have been playing, it's just a textbook takeout double.

[1eyedjack]

In days of yore, a beginner was taught that, as with a 3-suit pre-emptive opener, you have virtually bid your hand once you have opened 1N. Balance hand? Tick. Limited values? Tick. End of. So you open 1N and let partner place the contract.

If luxury permits, he may have an opportunity to invite if in doubt, and there are those nagging 4-4 major suit fits to look out for.

Upshot was, if you opened 1N, LHO overcalled, Pass, Pass, back to you, then you were not invited to the party. Responder has made all your decisions for you. Let them have it cheap at the 2 level in their overcall.

The practical reality is that after opening 1N, overcalled with 2H, when considering your defensive prospects contrasted with the potential benefits of competing, there is a world of a difference between

S:KQTx
H:Ax
D:Kxx
C:Qxxx

and

S:Ax
H:KQTx
D:Kxx
C:Qxxx

With the first hand you would be reluctant to pass and defend, and balancing with double for takeout is sensible. If partner has a hand suitable to convert to penalty by passing, there is no reason to be unhappy.

Of course you don't always have such a clear cut double, and partner does not always have a clear cut decision opposite a double. Such is life.

The point is that once you accept that opener is free to reopen, it lessens the pressure on having a systemic requirement for a penalty double in direct seat.

Then suppose you play a direct seat double for take-out. If you allow opener's rebid to distinguish between min v max by use of Lebensohl-style, it allows you to shade the strength requirements of a take-out double so that you can compete the partscore more aggressively without promising game prospect.

Whether or not responder plays Lebensohl after the overcall really does not feature much in the decision over whether a double should be penalty or take-out. Those questions are broadly independent.

[neilkaz]

 Charlie Yu, on 2015-December-02, 13:31, said:

If 3S is stayman then there is not much merit for X to be takeout.

Do you presume that opener would never want to pass for penalty?

[neilkaz]

 Caitlynne, on 2015-December-02, 11:30, said:

The standard "Goren" bid with that hand is 3S (i.e., a cue bid of the opponent's overcalled suit) which is played as Stayman asking for 4 card length in hearts (i.e., the unbid major). Partner is expected to bid 4H with heart length and usually 3NT otherwise.

Playing Lebensohl, you have more options. You could proceed as above or you may first bid 2NT (as a puppet to 3C) and then follow-up with the cue bid of 3S. Both auctions are typically played as Stayman, asking for a 4 card (unbid) major. However, most partnerships use the flexibility of Lebensohl to distinguish responding Stayman hands with and without the opponent's suit stopped. Most say that going slow (through the Lebensohl 2NT) shows the stopper and going fast (bidding 3S immediately) denies a spade stopper.

Please note that the OP is playing a weak NT so the responding hand doesn't look like a game force.

[mikestar13]

The double of 2♠ should be takeout (though partnership agreement is essential). It facilitates the handling of game invitational flattish hands, and it will collect more penalties than a penalty double. Because NT opener is considerably more likely than responder to have spade length if either of you does,
1NT-(2♠)-X for takeout-(P); P with spade length will happen considerably more often than 1NT-(2♠)-X for penalties. Edgar Kaplan advocated this view when he and Alfred Sheinwold were working out the KS system (which uses a weak NT-- but I prefer this treatment after a strong NT as well).

[Zelandakh]

Given that you find Lebensohl too complicated this might not be for you but one of the other options here is to play transfers, aka Rubensohl. This is really a variation of Lebensohl but I have found that some players find it simpler. The basic form is this:-

Double is takeout
Bidding a new suit at the 2 level is weak and natural
Bidding 3♠ shows a 3NT response without a stopper in their suit
Bids between 2NT and 3♥ are transfers and show the next suit up (except their suit); the range is weak/GF unless the suit could have been bid at the 2 level, in which case it is INV+
Transferring to the opps' suit is GF Stayman

In the case of a 2♠ overcall that means:-

X is takeout
2NT shows clubs (to play 3♣ or GF)
3♣ shows diamonds (to play 3♦ or GF)
3♦ shows hearts (to play 3♥ or GF)
3♥ shows 4 hearts and is GF
3♠ denies a spade stopper
3NT is to play

There are some further refinements you can add but the above is enough to start off with. If you like it, use it for 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ overcalls of your 1NT opening. For a 2♣ overcall it is simplest, if not always optimal, just to play system on with X for Stayman.

[Liversidge]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-December-03, 12:37, said:

Given that you find Lebensohl too complicated this might not be for you but one of the other options here is to play transfers, aka Rubensohl. This is really a variation of Lebensohl but I have found that some players find it simpler. The basic form is this:-

Double is takeout
Bidding a new suit at the 2 level is weak and natural
Bidding 3♠ shows a 3NT response without a stopper in their suit
Bids between 2NT and 3♥ are transfers and show the next suit up (except their suit); the range is weak/GF unless the suit could have been bid at the 2 level, in which case it is INV+
Transferring to the opps' suit is GF Stayman

In the case of a 2♠ overcall that means:-

X is takeout
2NT shows clubs (to play 3♣ or GF)
3♣ shows diamonds (to play 3♦ or GF)
3♦ shows hearts (to play 3♥ or GF)
3♥ shows 4 hearts and is GF
3♠ denies a spade stopper
3NT is to play

There are some further refinements you can add but the above is enough to start off with. If you like it, use it for 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ overcalls of your 1NT opening. For a 2♣ overcall it is simplest, if not always optimal, just to play system on with X for Stayman.

Thanks. My Acol reference (Complete Book of Bridge - Klinger & Dormer) recommends Rubensohl rather than lebensohl, so I will start there. We had another hand tonight where we could have done with it so that's my next study task!