[PhantomSac]

 kenrexford, on 2015-November-16, 06:30, said:

I recommend a pretty bid that does wonders here. Suppose a natrual 3H rebid. I use Responder's 3NT as a game try acceptance with four pieces in Opener's second suit. Slams make on relatively lesser values when you play in a 54 fit eith a side 53 fit.

Opener, after 3NT, can bid 4C to agree this new fit, show slam interest, and induce another descriptive call. Whatever your methods after 4C, this obviously helps.

Yeah, this is a very reasonable treatment but you give up on a natural 3N bid with a hand like xxx xxx KQT KQTx which might be the right spot. Another option is to flag, but then you lose on cuebidding.

I play precision so I never have slam tries here but it seems like the whole game try thing should be revamped in standard. If you have a slam try, you can make a natural slam try, otherwise bid 2N with a game try. With a max responder can just bid game. Game tries are rarely used anyways, if you have a game try hand you really don't want to give away much about your hand. If responder really has a marginal hand they can bid a natural(ish) suit over 2N and they have given away info (which I cringe at), but at least opener has given away nothing as declarer.

It seems really bad that you might have to bid 3H as a game try, and then responder bids 4m as a cuebid for spades, and then RHO might double, LHO knows better what to lead, etc etc. But I digress.

Edit: I see phil just suggested exactly what I suggested in my last line lol. Good call.

[lycier]

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[kenrexford]

 PhantomSac, on 2015-November-17, 01:04, said:

Yeah, this is a very reasonable treatment but you give up on a natural 3N bid with a hand like xxx xxx KQT KQTx which might be the right spot. Another option is to flag, but then you lose on cuebidding.

I play precision so I never have slam tries here but it seems like the whole game try thing should be revamped in standard. If you have a slam try, you can make a natural slam try, otherwise bid 2N with a game try. With a max responder can just bid game. Game tries are rarely used anyways, if you have a game try hand you really don't want to give away much about your hand. If responder really has a marginal hand they can bid a natural(ish) suit over 2N and they have given away info (which I cringe at), but at least opener has given away nothing as declarer.

It seems really bad that you might have to bid 3H as a game try, and then responder bids 4m as a cuebid for spades, and then RHO might double, LHO knows better what to lead, etc etc. But I digress.

Edit: I see phil just suggested exactly what I suggested in my last line lol. Good call.

For me, new suits usually have at least some remote slam interest and 2N is the usual bland gt, as you suggest.

If you want to keep 3NT in play, you can bump down to 3S when the opened major is hearts, which is nice anyway.

[inquiry]

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My traditional once every six month example of a MisIry Transfer auction (named for MIShovnbg and inquiry). I understand only a small group of people try it, but it is ACBL legal.I just take opportunities to demo it when hands like these show up.

2NT is club preempt or strong 2 suiter with hearts as one suit and second suit is either spadesor diamonds (four losers or less)

3C is to play opposite club preempt

4H is major two suiter (at least 5-5) and three losers (one here in spades, two in clubs, but location of losers is unknown)

5C denies king of diamonds and promises Club Ace plus a possible (or certain) second cover card

6C ask for 2nd round club control, thus showing two club losers plus North knows about the spade king loser, so openers 3 losers are know known to him.

7H is the obvious choice with full information. Opener is either 5512 with diamond ace or 6502 or 5602 with diamond void, with all the major honors except opener is missing the spade King and perhaps one or two major Jacks.


For more on MisIry google inquiry2over1 or search these forums for MisIry.

[PhantomSac]

Totally forgot about MisIry... nice to see you posting Ben, hope everything is well!

[Lovera]

What's wrong in 1♥ bid instead of 1♠ hoping in an positive answer by partner ? I agree with Cyberyeti in #2 and Mbodell in #4 with the second part (after 4NT ... that seems to solve as cards lie and probably there is a way to clear the N hand). Let me know what do you think about it.

[bluenikki]

 eagles123, on 2015-November-13, 14:24, said:

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our Auction was a fairly unscientific one to 6s which happened to make 7 when the club was right but of course 7H is virtually cold.

As it happened we got an 80% board for being in 6 but I think we should have found 7H

How can we bid it better - more how can I bid it better (I was South)

spots are approx btw

Thanks

Eagles

It's unrelated to the slam problem, but Alvin Roth contended that with 5-5 majors and values for game after 1♠ - 2♠ - ? you should bid 4♥. the 5-4 fit, if you have one, will make more often than than a 5-3.

[thepossum]

 eagles123, on 2015-November-13, 14:24, said:

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our Auction was a fairly unscientific one to 6s which happened to make 7 when the club was right but of course 7H is virtually cold.

As it happened we got an 80% board for being in 6 but I think we should have found 7H

How can we bid it better - more how can I bid it better (I was South)

spots are approx btw

Thanks

Eagles

The obvious suggestion is that if you want to find hearts you need to bid them
I am no expert as you all know but I am bidding hearts first or 2 clubs then hearts and spades if you need to later
I feel I am in the wrong forum but the basic concept of finding suit fits before looking at slam is NB level
Clear blockbuster. No passing allowed means starting with 2c whatever. Then with the luxury of all that oomph you go hearts first then spades
A hand that basically makes game on its own and you bid 1 spade
Sorry assuming we are playing a system where the only forcing bid available is 2 clubs

[Lovera]

 thepossum, on 2023-November-18, 00:57, said:

The obvious suggestion is that if you want to find hearts you need to bid them
I am no expert as you all know but I am bidding hearts first or 2 clubs then hearts and spades if you need to later
I feel I am in the wrong forum but the basic concept of finding suit fits before looking at slam is NB level
Clear blockbuster. No passing allowed means starting with 2c whatever. Then with the luxury of all that oomph you go hearts first then spades
A hand that basically makes game on its own and you bid 1 spade
Sorry assuming we are playing a system where the only forcing bid available is 2 clubs

Right. It was implicit but i agree with "The obvious suggestion is that if you want to find hearts you need to bid them".The partner raise at second level and it meanings 9-11 points. Subsequently S reverse necessarly with 2♠ showing shape/strenght and this one helps. A collateral consideration is that opps are silent.

[pescetom]

An interesting necro, even if you basically just seem to be saying that you haven't changed opinion in 8 years

FWIW I think the 'hearts first' cure is worse than the disease. I see nothing much wrong with a natural 3H rebid after 1S-2S, except that a natural 4H raise consumes too much bidding space and now slam investigation is cramped (particularly if we do not play 6 keycards, as showing a specific King in spades with hearts trumps may be problematic).

Kenrexford suggested using 3NT to show fit, but I find that unnecessarily artificial and a significant (albeit minor) loss of a natural bid. An alternative might be that 3S denies hearts fit and anything higher fixes trumps in hearts, with 4m being a courtesy control-bid (which for us would be low memory load as it is consistent with our agreements in many other areas).

[Lovera]

 pescetom, on 2023-November-18, 07:44, said:

An interesting necro, even if you basically just seem to be saying that you haven't changed opinion in 8 years

But don't say so. Eight years are a long time and anything of different can be found.

[mw64ahw]

My tuppence worth.

I take the strong 55M out of 2♣ and put it into a 2NT opener, which is weak 55minors, strong 55Majors or Strong xx(54). ♥ then become trumps.

[Gilithin]

Someone is making a late bid for the forum Necro of the Year award. Hilarious.

[Lovera]

Neither.
Try to see the things in other way. What to bid after 1♥-2♥, 2♠ by S ?

[thepossum]

Just noticed
Dates can trick all of us lol

[pescetom]

 Lovera, on 2023-November-18, 14:24, said:

Neither.
Try to see the things in other way. What to bid after 1♥-2♥, 2♠ by S ?

3♥ if natural, 4♥ if a game trial?

[Lovera]

 pescetom, on 2023-November-18, 15:49, said:

3♥ if natural, 4♥ if a game trial?

And so we are like before. It needs to express better the N hand.

[Gilithin]

 pescetom, on 2023-November-18, 15:49, said:

3♥ if natural, 4♥ if a game trial?

It's a short suit game try in an undisclosed suit for me...

[Lovera]

 Gilithin, on 2023-November-18, 18:55, said:

It's a short suit game try in an undisclosed suit for me...

And than ..

[Lovera]

Well, after that S reversed in ♠ N knows that partner's hand has a short suit probably to ♦ where he has 4 losers. Therefore with the bid of 4 ♦ he indicates 10/11 points, support at ♠ with the jump, collateral values ​​at ♣ and asks if partner can provide coverage for the losers in that suit. In fact, S has the stiff A and with 4NT then the bid goes as already indicated in #4 towards the slam (N's hand is easily readable and you can count 12 tricks plus one ruff at ♣. Indeed this one is a little-known bidding situation as "inverted splinter" or Bluhmer style bid type.