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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#12601 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 22:52

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-April-18, 21:21, said:

Could anyone suggest realistic points that might be behind the 2 GJ redactions (labelled #11 and #12) directly after jjbr's quote?


Anything - including documents - that were shown to the GJ could have been redacted. These could have been letters written in response to the questions or other matters the GJ wanted informed about.

A Barr "trick" to hide information would have been to redact a document that was seen by the GJ - thus making it 6E because of his redaction - but the document that could have been seen as long as the knowledge that the GJ used it was not shared. The act of redacting makes it hidden because of rule 6e.
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#12602 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 23:09

Seriously, you have to be deeply into blue pill fantasy if you read the Mueller report and buy into Barr's claims. The only thing that prevented conspiracy charges against Manafort was an inability by the SCO to uncover (due to Manafort using encrypted devices and deleting) what Kilimnik did with the many months of polling data given to him by Manafort, how Kilimnik used the information and to whom he gave the information provided by Manafort that the key states in his strategy for winning were Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.

We now know that Manafort informed a GRU-connected associate (Kilimnik), with close ties to Kremlin-connected oligarch Oleg Deripaska, that those were the states they needed to win, after which the Russian disinformation campaigns targeted those states, yet there is not enough hard evidence to prosecute. We also know that starting in early 2016, the Russians altered their campaign to an active support of Trump and that the Trump campaign was aware of it and never told the FBI, and instead lied over and over about any contacts with Russians.
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#12603 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 00:54

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-April-18, 15:40, said:

AG Barr said he used Mueller's criterion for deciding the obstruction issue, not his previous legal opinion. Are you suggesting AG Barr is lying?


I would not suggest that Dennison's government paid personal attorney Barr is lying. I am flat out saying that Barr is a liar.
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#12604 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 01:03

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-April-18, 19:04, said:

The power of the presidency is immense - that the power is in the hands of a totally corrupt individual is immensely damaging. It will take state level prosecutions to make a difference because AG Barr can no quash any U.S. federal inquiry, including the SDNY, and will be happy to do so under the direction of the president as that fits with his unitary executive beliefs.


The correct description of Barr is Government Paid Personal Attorney for Dennison. Describing him as attorney general brings disrepute onto the office (Not the first time as he has lied and put a brown stain on his office during the Bush 41 presidency Cover-up Attorney General Bill Barr strikes again
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#12605 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 01:23

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-April-18, 15:35, said:

LOL, I guess you feel challenging the progressive myth that collusion occurred is propaganda and, thus crap. Sorry to see you so brainwashed.

This opinion piece that appeared jn WAPO a couple days ago says it all --

https://www.washingt...m=.9f3962a57b83

LOL, a link to an Op-Ed piece written by a lifelong Republican and politician meant to sway public opinion before the redacted Mueller report. That certainly has a lot of credibility with me :lol: :lol: :lol:

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-April-18, 15:35, said:

Sure, Comey was not being forthcoming with the President about the investigation. And the President apparently had sources that exposed the duplicity that Comey was up to. See the following --

https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp


LOL :lol: LOL :lol: LOL :lol:


Did you link to the wrong article?

As John Kerry recently said, "are you kidding me"? Republican senator Burr apparently tries to obstruct justice by leaking confidential information to Dennison. Apparently he doesn't have any more ethics than Republican representative Nunes who did the same thing.
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#12606 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 02:02

White House Press Liar Sanders caught in more lies as documented in Mueller report. Dennison is not the only person in the white house for whom no lie is too small or too big to tell.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders Lied About Details Of James Comey’s Firing: Mueller Report

Quote

On May 10, 2017, Huckabee Sanders told reporters that President Donald Trump had decided to fire Comey a day earlier, only after Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein recommended he do so.

But Mueller’s nearly 400-page report, a redacted version of which was released to the public on Thursday, states otherwise.

“Substantial evidence” indicates Trump fired Comey for refusing to publicly state that the president wasn’t personally under investigation, according to the report.


Quote

But that was also a lie, according to Mueller’s report. Huckabee Sanders admitted to the special counsel’s office that her claim that Comey had lost the confidence of rank-and-file FBI agents was wholly fabricated.

...

“She also recalled that her statement in a separate press interview that rank-and-file FBI agents had lost confidence in Comey was a comment she made ‘in the heat of the moment’ that was not founded on anything,” the report added.

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#12607 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 06:29

Guest post from David Leonhardt at NYT echoing many posts on this thread:

Quote

In the years after Watergate, Justice Department officials — from both parties — worked hard to banish partisan cronyism from the department. Their goal was to make it the least political, most independent part of the executive branch.

“Our law is not an instrument of partisan purpose,” Edward Levi, Gerald Ford’s attorney general, said at the time. Griffin Bell, later appointed to the same job by Jimmy Carter, described the department as “a neutral zone in the government, because the law has to be neutral.”

Attorney General William Barr clearly rejects this principle. He’s repeatedly put a higher priority on protecting his boss, President Trump, than on upholding the law in a neutral way. He did so in his letter last month summarizing Robert Mueller’s investigation and then again in a bizarre prebuttal news conference yesterday. As The Times editorial board wrote, Barr yesterday “behaved more like the president’s defense attorney than the nation’s top law-enforcement officer.”

Throughout his tenure, Barr has downplayed or ignored the voluminous evidence of Trump’s wrongdoing — his lies to the American people, his willingness to work with a hostile foreign country during a presidential campaign, his tolerance of extensive criminal behavior among his staff and his repeated efforts to obstruct an investigation. Barr even claimed that Trump “fully cooperated” with that investigation, which Vox’s Ezra Klein notes is “an outright lie.”

Since he took office, Trump has made clear that he wants an attorney general who acts as first an enforcer of raw power and only second as an enforcer of federal law. In Barr, Trump has found his man. Together, they have cast aside more than four decades worth of Justice Department ideals and instead adopted the approach of Richard Nixon.

New York magazine’s Jonathan Chait argues that Barr’s behavior is grounds for impeachment — of Barr. “The Justice Department is an awesome force that holds the power to enable the ruling party to commit crimes with impunity, or to intimidate and smear the opposing party with the taint of criminality,” Chait writes. “Barr has revealed his complete unfitness for this awesome task.”
“Barr’s summaries of Mueller’s findings, it turns out, didn’t just tighten up the findings. They misrepresented key points,” writes Vox’s Laura McGann, who compared Barr’s letter and press conference to the actual Mueller report.

The Washington Post’s Harry Litman points out that Barr’s deputy, Rod Rosenstein, has helped enable this behavior, which means that Rosenstein has also helped to undermine the post-Nixon Justice Department norms. “Rosenstein will be remembered not just for a lonely effort to stand up to an assault from Trump and congressional Republicans, plus his original, commendable decision to appoint Mueller, but also for stumbles in judgment along the way,” Litman writes.

The Atlantic’s Yoni Appelbaum summarizes the Mueller report and argues that it is effectively an impeachment referral. The New Yorker’s Susan Glasser and the Lawfare team have also published summaries. For a very different view, Christopher Buskirk argues in The Times that the Mueller report absolves Barr and Trump and makes only the media look bad.

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#12608 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 06:35

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-April-18, 15:40, said:

AG Barr said he used Mueller's criterion for deciding the obstruction issue, not his previous legal opinion. Are you suggesting AG Barr is lying?


FWIW, there's a lot of folks now saying that Barr's summary report was untruthful.

Its worth listening to the Stay Tuned with Preet and Lawfare podcasts this AM
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#12609 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 08:33

It is impossible to read the Mueller report without coming to the conclusion that the bad guys won. The bad guys in this reference are the Russians and Manafort, who together were able to hide the totality of their activities from investigators.

The report also makes it clear that the Trump campaign was totally aware of the Russian efforts on his behalf and supported it morally if not criminally.

Congratulations, Republicans, you've got your guy.
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#12610 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 08:39

View Postjohnu, on 2019-April-19, 01:03, said:

The correct description of Barr is Government Paid Personal Attorney for Dennison. Describing him as attorney general brings disrepute onto the office (Not the first time as he has lied and put a brown stain on his office during the Bush 41 presidency Cover-up Attorney General Bill Barr strikes again


Btw, I have a typo in my quote that I just fixed - it was supposed to say Barr can now quash...
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#12611 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 08:50

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-April-18, 22:52, said:

Anything - including documents - that were shown to the GJ could have been redacted. These could have been letters written in response to the questions or other matters the GJ wanted informed about.

A Barr "trick" to hide information would have been to redact a document that was seen by the GJ - thus making it 6E because of his redaction - but the document that could have been seen as long as the knowledge that the GJ used it was not shared. The act of redacting makes it hidden.

Yes, but look at the text before and after the redactions. This section specifically relates to POTUS responses. The only documents I can imagine coming in here are the actual letters laying out where SCO thinks the POTUS written answers are lacking and the response from POTUS counsel. But surely the description of where the answers are lacking is precisely the sort of information that belongs in a public report. I suspect the redaction is done "to protect the reputations of people who avoid charges", meaning POTUS - which is precisely the thing that he said before Congress that he would not do. But what do I know?

In any case, I get the feeling I am reading a different document from some commentators. It reads to me absolutely that SCO decided that POTUS obstructed justice but they cannot say so because that would be unfair in a context where the individual cannot be charged. Instead, it is for Congress to make the charge in a context (impeachment) where the accused can mount a defence (Senate hearings). Seriously, what is it that I am missing in the report to suggest anything other than this?
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#12612 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 09:14

From the House joint statement:

Quote

“Despite redactions that appear to obscure important details, the Special Counsel’s report finds that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 election in a ‘sweeping and systematic’ fashion in order to assist the candidacy of Donald Trump, and that the Trump campaign was aware of those efforts and expected it would benefit electorally from Russia’s efforts. Contrary to Attorney General Barr’s statements, the report catalogues the extensive interactions between Russian officials and agents and Trump campaign associates of a profoundly compromising nature. The report details how Russia deployed a multi-faceted intelligence operation and sought to exploit and influence the Trump campaign and transition, while the Trump campaign, beginning with candidate Trump, sought to benefit from a hostile foreign intelligence operation.



“The report also details the multiple convictions of Trump campaign officials and associates secured by the Special Counsel for crimes related to obstructing the investigation, which hampered the investigation, according to the Special Counsel. In addition, the report outlines efforts to destroy evidence, conceal evidence through encrypted apps, and otherwise interfere with the Special Counsel’s ability to conduct this investigation. This apparent coordinated effort to cover up illicit contacts and links with Russia should concern all Americans, whether or not criminal charges were brought.

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#12613 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 09:18

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-April-19, 08:50, said:

Yes, but look at the text before and after the redactions. This section specifically relates to POTUS responses. The only documents I can imagine coming in here are the actual letters laying out where SCO thinks the POTUS written answers are lacking and the response from POTUS counsel. But surely the description of where the answers are lacking is precisely the sort of information that belongs in a public report. I suspect the redaction is done "to protect the reputations of people who avoid charges", meaning POTUS - which is precisely the thing that he said before Congress that he would not do. But what do I know?

In any case, I get the feeling I am reading a different document from some commentators. It reads to me absolutely that SCO decided that POTUS obstructed justice but they cannot say so because that would be unfair in a context where the individual cannot be charged. Instead, it is for Congress to make the charge in a context (impeachment) where the accused can mount a defence (Senate hearings). Seriously, what is it that I am missing in the report to suggest anything other than this?


You are absolutely correct that the report is totally damning - even the conspiracy part. The only reason - it appears - that conspiracy could not be successfully charged was the obstruction to hide the activities - encrypted apps, deletions, lies, and lack of cooperation, dangling of pardons, etc.

Mueller, it seems, felt he could not indict on Obstruction charges due to JD guidelines, so he laid out the case as a roadmap for Congress to act.
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#12614 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 09:22

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-April-19, 08:50, said:

In any case, I get the feeling I am reading a different document from some commentators. It reads to me absolutely that SCO decided that POTUS obstructed justice but they cannot say so because that would be unfair in a context where the individual cannot be charged. Instead, it is for Congress to make the charge in a context (impeachment) where the accused can mount a defence (Senate hearings). Seriously, what is it that I am missing in the report to suggest anything other than this?


This may be a minor point, however, Mueller also states that the report is documenting criminal charges that can be brought once Trump is no longer president...
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#12615 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 10:42

View Postcherdano, on 2019-April-18, 13:09, said:

I guess it's ok that Trump orders his aides to commit crimes because (so far) he has had aides who refused to carry out such orders?

I've heard some say that the reason Trump isn't guilty of conspiracy is mostly that he's incompetent at conspiring.

#12616 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 10:49

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-April-19, 08:50, said:

In any case, I get the feeling I am reading a different document from some commentators. It reads to me absolutely that SCO decided that POTUS obstructed justice but they cannot say so because that would be unfair in a context where the individual cannot be charged. Instead, it is for Congress to make the charge in a context (impeachment) where the accused can mount a defence (Senate hearings). Seriously, what is it that I am missing in the report to suggest anything other than this?

Well, the two of us read the same document.
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#12617 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 13:25

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-April-19, 09:22, said:

This may be a minor point, however, Mueller also states that the report is documenting criminal charges that can be brought once Trump is no longer president...

But he also concludes that such charges should not be documented:

Quote

OLC noted similar concerns about sealed indictments. Even if an indictment were sealed during the President's term, OLC reasoned, "it would be very difficult to preserve [an indictment's] secrecy, " and if an indictment became public, "[t]he stigma and opprobrium" could imperil the President's ability to govern." Although a prosecutor's internal report would not represent a formal public accusation akin to an indictment, the possibility of the report 's public disclosure and the absence of a neutral adjudicatory forum to review its findings counseled against potentially determining "that the person's conduct constitutes a federal offense."


So how could SCO ever have brought such charges into the report within such a constraint?
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#12618 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 13:48

Dennison's government paid personal attorney Barr has successfully obscured the facts of the Mueller report. Comments in the world at large as well as this forum topic clearly show Dennison puppets citing Barr's summary and statements without regard to the facts of the actual report.

The Ways William Barr Misled The Public About The Mueller Report

Barr has basically gaslighted the Republican base and attempted to gaslight the entire nation:

Barr said NO OBSTRUCTION. The report says

Quote

[I]f we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment.

Report says that Congress can impeach based on the evidence.

Quote

NBC News reported earlier that some in Mueller’s office had said “their intent was to leave the legal question open for Congress and the public to examine the evidence.”

“[W]e concluded that Congress can validly regulate the President’s exercise of official duties to prohibit actions motivated by a corrupt intent to obstruct justice,” the report says.

In other words, Congress can impeach the president if it wants to do so.

Urban legend that conspiracy to commit a crime or obstruct justice requires a successful crime. How many times have you read about criminals and terrorists who are arrested after trying to commit a crime with an FBI or police informant/undercover agent where there was zero possibility that the informant was going to participate in the crime?

Quote

“The President’s efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests,” the report reads.

The report detailed 10 acts by Trump that could amount to obstruction of justice.

Why was there no conclusion of collusion:

Quote

But the Mueller report never actually said the investigation found no collusion. In fact, the report explains specifically why it doesn’t use the term “collusion.” The word only appears in the report as part of this explanation or in quoting someone else.

The Mueller report avoided using the term "collusion," and explains why [in the report]

Barr said Dennison fully cooperated with Mueller.

Quote

Trump, however, didn’t fully cooperate. He refused repeated requests to give an interview to Mueller and his team. The report said the special counsel’s team considered issuing a subpoena for Trump to testify but ultimately decided it wasn’t worth it:

In answering Muellers written questionaire, Dennison said he didn't remember or recall events 37 times, and many other answers were vague and incomplete.
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#12619 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 13:53

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-April-19, 13:25, said:

But he also concludes that such charges should not be documented:


So how could SCO ever have brought such charges into the report within such a constraint?


Mueller is documenting that there is evidence of such crimes even if they could not be published
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#12620 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 15:21

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-April-19, 13:25, said:

But he also concludes that such charges should not be documented:


So how could SCO ever have brought such charges into the report within such a constraint?


Mueller was writing about the reason he didn't utilize a sealed indictment. His position was that DOJ guidelines did not allow a sitting president to be indicted and tried, therefore the only way to indict would have been under seal. However, that could and probably would have leaked. It would then have been unfair to the person charged that he could not go to trial and clear his name in open court.

Furthermore, by not charging, Mueller was free to spell out the facts and let those facts speak for themselves, thereby giving to Congress a road map if they thought the actions egregious enough to warrant impeachment.
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