[Kaitlyn S]

 Vampyr, on 2016-November-11, 18:26, said:

(I assume you are an American citizen).

Indeed. Canada is in North America, so I assume that makes him American.

[Vampyr]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-November-11, 18:28, said:

Indeed. Canada is in North America, so I assume that makes him American.

Yes, it makes him American in that sense, but what I meant was a US citizen.

[PassedOut]

From my conservative perspective, I don't like that Trump ran on restoring fiscal irresponsibility. It took eight years to clean up after Reagan-Bush #1, but Bush #2 left such a huge yearly deficit that Obama hasn't been able to erase it (although he did make good progress on it). So now the deficit will balloon again on top of the current one.

[Vampyr]

 PassedOut, on 2016-November-11, 18:35, said:

From my conservative perspective, I don't like that Trump ran on restoring fiscal irresponsibility. It took eight years to clean up after Reagan-Bush the first, but Bush the second left such a huge yearly deficit that Obama hasn't been able to erase it (although he did make good progress on it). So now the deficit will balloon again on top of the current one.

It is kind of ironic that it is the Rebublicans who call the Democrats big spenders.

One thing I don't understand is that Trump has seen the "trickle down economy" in action but still wants to try it again.

[cherdano]

 jonottawa, on 2016-November-11, 18:09, said:

Bush-Gore 2000 had a slightly larger popular vote gap,

LOL

Edit: Oh and I didn't even realise how ridiculous the rest of Jon's post is. He equates changing the system for future elections from a ridiculous one to a sensible one with complaining and rioting about the result of the previous election.

[Al_U_Card]

IIRC, it is conservatives that enlarge deficits and the liberals end up whittling them down. (Saw something to that effect over the last 5 administrations or so. It has to do with defense spending being costlier than welfare benefits...)

If anyone is likely to take a different tack, it would be La Donald. Perhaps the US can declare bankruptcy and China will be left holding the bag?

[y66]

 Vampyr, on 2016-November-11, 17:58, said:

In any case, it is not clear what will happen when theTrump University fraud case is heard. Trump will probably settle out of court, but who knows what might happen. We should probably give some thought to what a Pence presidency would be like.

McConnell and Ryan are probably already working on this.

[helene_t]

 Vampyr, on 2016-November-11, 18:39, said:

One thing I don't understand is that Trump has seen the "trickle down economy" in action but still wants to try it again.

I think it is a general psychological mechanism that dogma trumps experience. Replace "trickle down economy" with faith healing, or omnibus opening-strength doubles. Or with socialism for that matter.

[Winstonm]

 helene_t, on 2016-November-12, 05:05, said:

I think it is a general psychological mechanism that dogma trumps experience. Replace "trickle down economy" with faith healing, or omnibus opening-strength doubles. Or with socialism for that matter.

I think many religiously inclined find comfort in the simplistic, faith-based belief of right-wing ideologues.

[y66]

 helene_t, on 2016-November-12, 05:05, said:

I think it is a general psychological mechanism that dogma trumps experience. Replace "trickle down economy" with faith healing, or omnibus opening-strength doubles. Or with socialism for that matter.

Yes, go with the flow works great for conserving energy and avoiding conflicts until you reach the falls.

[awm]

During my lifetime there have been seven US presidents, from Ford (whom I don't remember) through Obama. Of these seven, I have no doubt that the worst was George W. Bush. On his watch we had the worst terrorist attack in US history, started two very long and costly wars which seem to have accomplished very little, seriously damaged our country's reputation abroad (to the degree that we had our international bridge team holding up signs to say they didn't vote for the man), had the worst-managed natural disaster in the US that I can remember (hurricane Katrina), and finished with the worst economic recession since before my parents were born.

If the Donald Trump presidency turns out similarly to that of George W. Bush then I think our country (and the world) will be very lucky.

Comparing the two men, the largest difference stands out to me that George W. Bush was widely considered likable and prone to surrounding himself with intelligent people. He would then listen to their advice. People said DIck Cheney was the most powerful VP in history, and while I disagreed with him politically on many things he certainly had experience and some degree of knowledge. Donald Trump seems widely disliked (especially by women) and doesn't seem to listen to anyone; he surrounds himself with grifters and zealots, people like Newt Gingrich and Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani, who've already been through serious ethical issues in prior jobs. He fires people when they say things he doesn't like (how many campaign managers did he go through?) and seems to have no respect for information (flatly denying CIA reports that Russia was interfering with our election process on the basis of... nothing). He has run a campaign based very explicitly on racism, misogyny, and religious discrimination. Is it possible that he will govern like George W. Bush from the center-right, and overlook his own campaign rhetoric about kicking muslims and latinos out of the country, supporting police who shoot unarmed black men, blaming our economic woes on an international conspiracy of Jews and Chinese, etc? Sure it is possible that this was all "locker room talk" but even so, the groups that believe such rhetoric will feel empowered by his election and are likely to ramp up their activities, ignored by federal law enforcement which will surely be told to focus their efforts solely on "Islamic Terrorism" even though the vast majority of violent crimes in the US are committed by white "christian" men.

For myself, I am applying for transfers outside the country through my work, but most likely the actual move won't be until summer. For forty years I've felt like the US has been my home. Now I feel like a boarder with landlords who don't like me very much and it's time to look elsewhere. I hope (for the sake of friends and family and the many people who didn't vote for this) that things are better than they look from here. But when the "best case" is lousy and the "worst case" catastrophic, I think it's time to leave while we can.

[jonottawa]

Now we're pushing the narrative that Obama was a deficit hawk? Seriously? I don't know whether people are just brainwashed or trolling sometimes.

Obama inherited a mess. Trump has inherited a much BIGGER mess. Let's be honest about that. $19.8 TRILLION. $61,000 for EVERY citizen or $165,000 for EVERY taxpayer. http://www.usdebtclock.org/

We can all agree that Dubya was BY FAR the worst President since LBJ. We should also be able to agree that Obama was the 2nd worst, if we measure presidencies by comparing how they got it & how they left it.

As for likability, Trump has always been perceived as likable until he ran for president, and then like all Republican presidential hopefuls before him he got branded as an evil racist fascist misogynist lunatic because he thinks a nation should have borders & a government should put its citizens first.

As for surrounding themselves with smart people, I don't care how smart people are if they're evil. Dubya was a mediocre intellect and an alcoholic who surrounded himself with evil & corrupt people. Trump is a very intelligent guy, and a workaholic, who doesn't drink & who surrounds himself with smart people who love America. My ONE concern in that respect is that he might give his children (who he clearly is devoted to) political power & that might well cost him dearly in the future (remember you read it here first.)

I urge many of you folks to turn off your TV's and radios and to stop reading the newspaper. War is NOT Peace. Freedom is NOT Slavery. Ignorance is NOT Strength.

[PassedOut]

 jonottawa, on 2016-November-12, 12:04, said:

Now we're pushing the narrative that Obama was a deficit hawk? Seriously? I don't know whether people are just brainwashed or trolling sometimes.

It's just looking at the numbers. The last Bush budget (FY 2009) had a deficit of $1.4 trillion. That was the highest ever, and has come down since. The last Obama budget (FY 2017) has a deficit of $0.5 trillion. That's not good, but is in the right direction. You can't stop paying the bills.

Trump promises to move the deficit back in the wrong direction, as did Reagan and the Bushes before him.

[Cyberyeti]

 jonottawa, on 2016-November-12, 12:04, said:

Now we're pushing the narrative that Obama was a deficit hawk? Seriously? I don't know whether people are just brainwashed or trolling sometimes.

Obama inherited a mess. Trump has inherited a much BIGGER mess. Let's be honest about that. $19.8 TRILLION. $61,000 for EVERY citizen or $165,000 for EVERY taxpayer.

We can all agree that Dubya was BY FAR the worst President since LBJ. We should also be able to agree that Obama was the 2nd worst, if we measure presidencies by comparing how they got it & how they left it.

The right parrot this stat without any critical thinking. Stats in Trillions for the debt
1966 - 0.32
1976 - 0.62
1986 - 2.1
1996 - 5.2
2006 - 8.5
2016 ~ 20

The rise is not out of whack with recent history, other than 96-06 it's a similar multiplier over the 10 year periods.

[kenberg]

Part of what I get out of Adam's post is that it is not just the Trump policies that worry him, it is Trump that worries him. Whether Adam is or isn't saying that, I am. Policies can be changed, but a person is who he is.


And now for some comic relief. Listening to Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, I learned that Steve Bannon's pants caught on fire while he was working on a speech for Trump.
See
http://usuncut.com/p...-pants-on-fire/
or
http://www.npr.org/p...-for-nov-5-2016

It was suggested that this happened just as he was typing "Don't worry, we didn't mean any of it". We wish!

[Winstonm]

 awm, on 2016-November-12, 10:28, said:

During my lifetime there have been seven US presidents, from Ford (whom I don't remember) through Obama. Of these seven, I have no doubt that the worst was George W. Bush. On his watch we had the worst terrorist attack in US history, started two very long and costly wars which seem to have accomplished very little, seriously damaged our country's reputation abroad (to the degree that we had our international bridge team holding up signs to say they didn't vote for the man), had the worst-managed natural disaster in the US that I can remember (hurricane Katrina), and finished with the worst economic recession since before my parents were born.

If the Donald Trump presidency turns out similarly to that of George W. Bush then I think our country (and the world) will be very lucky.

Comparing the two men, the largest difference stands out to me that George W. Bush was widely considered likable and prone to surrounding himself with intelligent people. He would then listen to their advice. People said DIck Cheney was the most powerful VP in history, and while I disagreed with him politically on many things he certainly had experience and some degree of knowledge. Donald Trump seems widely disliked (especially by women) and doesn't seem to listen to anyone; he surrounds himself with grifters and zealots, people like Newt Gingrich and Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani, who've already been through serious ethical issues in prior jobs. He fires people when they say things he doesn't like (how many campaign managers did he go through?) and seems to have no respect for information (flatly denying CIA reports that Russia was interfering with our election process on the basis of... nothing). He has run a campaign based very explicitly on racism, misogyny, and religious discrimination. Is it possible that he will govern like George W. Bush from the center-right, and overlook his own campaign rhetoric about kicking muslims and latinos out of the country, supporting police who shoot unarmed black men, blaming our economic woes on an international conspiracy of Jews and Chinese, etc? Sure it is possible that this was all "locker room talk" but even so, the groups that believe such rhetoric will feel empowered by his election and are likely to ramp up their activities, ignored by federal law enforcement which will surely be told to focus their efforts solely on "Islamic Terrorism" even though the vast majority of violent crimes in the US are committed by white "christian" men.

For myself, I am applying for transfers outside the country through my work, but most likely the actual move won't be until summer. For forty years I've felt like the US has been my home. Now I feel like a boarder with landlords who don't like me very much and it's time to look elsewhere. I hope (for the sake of friends and family and the many people who didn't vote for this) that things are better than they look from here. But when the "best case" is lousy and the "worst case" catastrophic, I think it's time to leave while we can.

Just to let you know, I have been around a good while longer than you and the first President I remember most vividly was John F. Kennedy, but I have to agree that Bush was the worst. I do not think your sentiments are an exaggeration - the damage is not going to come from Trump, though, it will come in the guise of Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and Mike Pence, people who will try their level best to unravel all the progressive gains of Roosevelt and relive the Civil War with a different ending.

I really don't think Trump wants very much the job of President - he only wanted to win the election. Now, I believe he will turn over the day-to-day operations to Mike Pence, et al, and move on to his next promotional scam - trying to act Presidential.

For people who care about each other's welfare, there is no upside to this election. Optimism has indeed been Trumped. Good luck. I envy you as my circumstances to do not allow me the same flexibility; however, I hope for you that you find a better place.

[jonottawa]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-November-12, 12:18, said:

The right parrot this stat without any critical thinking. Stats in Trillions for the debt
1966 - 0.32
1976 - 0.62
1986 - 2.1
1996 - 5.2
2006 - 8.5
2016 ~ 20

The rise is not out of whack with recent history, other than 96-06 it's a similar multiplier over the 10 year periods.

So according to your analysis, if we average yearly deficits of $2 TRILLION over the next 10 years, everything will be fine, because the debt will only have doubled?

#NotSureIfTrolling

I disagree with most of this, but I like the headline:

Spoiled Americans now want to flee what they created

[Winstonm]

 jonottawa, on 2016-November-12, 12:32, said:

So according to your analysis, if we average yearly deficits of $2 TRILLION over the next 10 years, everything will be fine, because the debt will only have doubled?

#NotSureIfTrolling

National Debt is not the same issue as personal or family debt. All that really matters is the ratio of debt to GNP. We are currently around 85%, which is not great but certainly nothing to freak out about.

As for your admonition, I agree that tv and newspapers are poor choices for information - but if you don't read books by authors who actually know their stuff and read instead Ann Coulter, you end up freaking out about a National Debt that is not a big problem.

[PassedOut]

 jonottawa, on 2016-November-12, 12:32, said:

So according to your analysis, if we average yearly deficits of $2 TRILLION over the next 10 years, everything will be fine, because the debt will only have doubled?

That would be a yearly deficit four times the size of the one Obama left, and $0.6 trillion more than the one Bush left, but still might be less than the yearly deficit Trump has proposed. That's not what I, nor other conservatives, want to see. While a government needs to run a deficit to recover from a recession, it needs to focus on bringing down the deficit afterwards to be ready for another recession.

[y66]

Tom Friedman's take on the election had some themes in common with awm's take. Friedman described a feeling of homelessness which felt right to me. I understand the temptation and the wisdom of fleeing. Life is too short to have to deal with this bullshit year after year after ***** year, in the real world and even here in the water cooler. One of my literary heroes is Cormac McCarthy who wrote these lines almost 40 years ago and has not shown any signs of mellowing since:

Quote

Somewhere in the gray wood by the river is the huntsman and in the brooming corn and in the castellated press of cities. His work lies all wheres and his hounds tire not. I have seen them in a dream, slaverous and wild and their eyes crazed with the ravening for souls in this world. Fly them.

The problem for me isn't so much Trump or Bush as it is the crazed minds of the people who voted for them and who speak for them here in the water cooler, the last refuge on what looks more like the road to hell than I ever imagined I would find myself on in this country. I mean, I don't even think John Denver could spin this into something that looks like its going the other way anytime soon.