[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2016-November-11, 11:10, said:

Now that electoral data is showing up it is easy to see that Clinton lost because Democrats did not show up to vote.

Indeed. We voted on Tuesday and I was greatly surprised by the non-length of the line. It took us ten maybe fifteen minutes to get to the desk, get the ballot, fill it out, have it processed, get out the door. Of course some voted early but still I expected a longer line.

It's pretty Republican where I live, so this doesn't quite match with what you are saying about the Dems low turnout, but I still think you are right. Turnout was not generally high, and in Maryland the outcome was certain (Dem), but in some areas of great enthusiasm the Trump voters voted, the Clinton voters thought about maybe going out to vote if they had the time. Bad move.

I could have gone up to Pennsylvania to help get out the vote, but I didn't.

[y66]

kenberg, on 2016-November-11, 10:57, said:

And just for amusement: I was parking to go into a store, the BBC portion of the morning NPR stuff was on, and they were interviewing a guy in western Pennsylvania about Trump stuff. I found it interesting so I stayed in the car to listen. At the end, the interviewer, a guy if I remember correctly, thanked him for his fascinating insights.
Now it has been a long time since I grew up in my working class neighborhood, but back in the 1940s-1950s no guy ever called another guy fascinating.. Another cultural clash!

And if they had, the interviewee would still be getting ribbed for it in the local bar.

I can't stop thinking of The Deer Hunter whose characters are from western Pennsylvania and its themes of friendship, rites of passage, Russian Roulette, getting left behind and God Bless America. No doubt, Trump tapped into deep pockets of support in that part of the world. I like to think that the characters I admired got out and got on with their lives and that the Meryl Streep character at least would have voted for Hillary.

[helene_t]

kenberg, on 2016-November-11, 11:22, said:

Indeed. We voted on Tuesday and I was greatly surprised by the non-length of the line. It took us ten maybe fifteen minutes to get to the desk, get the ballot, fill it out, have it processed, get out the door. Of course some voted early but still I expected a longer line.

There is a simple way to improve turn-ups. I have never had to wait a minute, neither in DK, NL or UK. I am not sure if I would ever bother to vote if I had to wait for a long time. But maybe one could say that it is a way for weeding out those who don't care and would just vote more or less randomly.

[Al_U_Card]

She lost because she had insufficient appeal (even if it was only to appeal to voters to turn out) to gain a victory. That she lost all of the "battleground" states as well as some previous "safe" states speaks volumes to her D.C.-centric, pseudo-intellectual insincerity.
Her actions spoke as clearly as Trump's and happily, the preference was for a sly huckster as opposed to an insincere insider.
Trump may turn out to be the worst Prez since....Chester A. Arthur(?) but he may well be one of the better ones, like Ike, who was not beholden to anyone other than the electorate, whom he admired and wanted to protect. Likely the most interesting of times to come since quite some time.

[onoway]

wow. just... wow. What sort of President he turns out to be may get totally lost in what sort of country ( society) he has energized and validated. I was reading a thread "the First Day" and it was truly heartbreaking.

Women quietly pumping gas for their cars being approached by men who freely comment on what they would like to do to them. One told to get her slave number ready, another faced with a man waving a gun and saying he was thinking he might like to shoot her. One had another woman come to try to help and she was derided, belittled and threatened as well.

Women on public transportation facing men who try to grab their crotch while other men laughed.

Huge billboard graffiti proclaiming that black lives DON'T matter.

High schools echoing with chants and graffiti that would have been comfortable in Nazi Germany, including the use of the word "heil". Frequent taunts and diatribe using extremely derogatory and hurtful terms thrown at other students, including threats. The police say these are school matters.

A woman approached and harrassed by 4 men, one of who punched her; when she used her martial arts training to flatten him the other men called the police and claimed she had just attacked for no reason. She got handcuffed and hauled away by the police.

Women from deeply religious families being told by their mothers not to wear the hijab, it isn't safe to go outside with it on. Women who have worn it told to take it off and hang themselves with it, they are useless and unwanted so they might as well die.

Children going home crying from KINDERGARTEN after being told by other children that they won't be allowed to be there anymore, they have to go live behind a wall because nobody wants them and they don't belong there. The teachers either unable or unwilling to reassure them.

I can't even begin to imagine the fear and anxiety that many obviously non whites, especially women, much less the openly gay and the obviously handicapped, must be feeling right now. Hunting season is open, no license required.

So easy for those of us who are white, especially white males, to pontificate about "interesting times". so very very sad.

[billw55]

onoway, on 2016-November-11, 13:17, said:

wow. just... wow. What sort of President he turns out to be may get totally lost in what sort of country ( society) he has energized and validated. I was reading a thread "the First Day" and it was truly heartbreaking.

Women quietly pumping gas for their cars being approached by men who freely comment on what they would like to do to them. One told to get her slave number ready, another faced with a man waving a gun and saying he was thinking he might like to shoot her. One had another woman come to try to help and she was derided, belittled and threatened as well.

Women on public transportation facing men who try to grab their crotch while other men laughed.

Huge billboard graffiti proclaiming that black lives DON'T matter.

High schools echoing with chants and graffiti that would have been comfortable in Nazi Germany, including the use of the word "heil". Frequent taunts and diatribe using extremely derogatory and hurtful terms thrown at other students, including threats. The police say these are school matters.

A woman approached and harrassed by 4 men, one of who punched her; when she used her martial arts training to flatten him the other men called the police and claimed she had just attacked for no reason. She got handcuffed and hauled away by the police.

Women from deeply religious families being told by their mothers not to wear the hijab, it isn't safe to go outside with it on. Women who have worn it told to take it off and hang themselves with it, they are useless and unwanted so they might as well die.

Children going home crying from KINDERGARTEN after being told by other children that they won't be allowed to be there anymore, they have to go live behind a wall because nobody wants them and they don't belong there. The teachers either unable or unwilling to reassure them.

I can't even begin to imagine the fear that many of openly gay and the obviously handicapped must be feeling right now. Hunting season is open, no license required.

So easy for those of us who are white to pontificate about "interesting times". so very very sad.

Again I wonder, how much of this is truth versus hoax.

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on 2016-November-11, 11:43, said:

I am not sure if I would ever bother to vote if I had to wait for a long time. But maybe one could say that it is a way for weeding out those who don't care and would just vote more or less randomly.

You could say that, but one would be making a startlingly ignorant assertion

Comment the first: There is severe discrimination wrt the sets of people who get to vote quickly and conveniently and the sets of people who have to wait in long lines

Comment thee second: The groups of people who get to wait in long lines are black, hispanics, and other such undesirables who have the misfortune to live in states controlled by the Republicans.

[onoway]

Billw55 : hope springs eternal, obviously. If even a quarter of this is true, does that make it all right? half? an eighth? What proportion of hate, violence and viciousness aimed at people for no reason other than they are different is acceptable? Would you feel as comfortable about it all if you happened to be on the other side of that particular coin?

What possible reason would they have to post such things, they aren't going to get any glory from being approached by predators, it isn't as though they might be talking about anyone famous, these are people who feel fear about even going to get gas from a gas station now or choosing what they will wear for the day, or trying to figure out what to tell their teenager -or their 5 year old! - about what he or she is being faced with in school.

And, if, just if, all these people are not making this up what then?

The various graffiti is online photographs, from billboards to walls to (what certainly appear to be) school lockers.

[Al_U_Card]

onoway, on 2016-November-11, 13:41, said:

Billw55 : hope springs eternal, obviously. If even a quarter of this is true, does that make it all right? half? an eighth? What proportion of hate, violence and viciousness aimed at people for no reason other than they are different is acceptable? Would you feel as comfortable about it all if you happened to be on the other side of that particular coin?

What possible reason would they have to post such things, they aren't going to get any glory from being approached by predators, it isn't as though they might be talking about anyone famous, these are people who feel fear about even going to get gas from a gas station now or choosing what they will wear for the day, or trying to figure out what to tell their teenager -or their 5 year old! - about what he or she is being faced with in school.

And, if, just if, all these people are not making this up what then?

The various graffiti is online photographs, from billboards to walls to (what certainly appear to be) school lockers.

And if it was by disgruntled Hilophants or even Dem agents provocateur? Either way, you have 2 years until the Dems can get control of Congress and thwart any such a move by the Trump administration.

[jonottawa]

I prefer stories that AREN'T hoaxes.



^^^^ Why am I not surprised that YouTube censors a video showing a 17-year old girl who supports Trump being attacked violently & viciously?



I'd say more, but if I said what ought to be said I'd probably be banned.

[jonottawa]

^^^(This was (when I originally posted it) a video showing a woman abusing her 8-year oldish child for 'voting' for Trump at school.)





Speaking of hoaxes ...
https://twitter.com/...858866877267968

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2016-November-11, 11:22, said:

Indeed. We voted on Tuesday and I was greatly surprised by the non-length of the line. It took us ten maybe fifteen minutes to get to the desk, get the ballot, fill it out, have it processed, get out the door. Of course some voted early but still I expected a longer line.

It's pretty Republican where I live, so this doesn't quite match with what you are saying about the Dems low turnout, but I still think you are right. Turnout was not generally high, and in Maryland the outcome was certain (Dem), but in some areas of great enthusiasm the Trump voters voted, the Clinton voters thought about maybe going out to vote if they had the time. Bad move.

I could have gone up to Pennsylvania to help get out the vote, but I didn't.

You might want to look at these comparisons of Dem voter turnout in last 3 elections. http://imgur.com/TOGIbcP

I cannot vouch for the reliability of the charts or the person who posted them

[hrothgar]

Interesting discussion here

http://talkingpoints...sponds-to-judis

[y66]

David Plouffe: What I Got Wrong About the Election

[Kaitlyn S]

onoway, on 2016-November-11, 13:17, said:

wow. just... wow. What sort of President he turns out to be may get totally lost in what sort of country ( society) he has energized and validated. I was reading a thread "the First Day" and it was truly heartbreaking.

Women quietly pumping gas for their cars being approached by men who freely comment on what they would like to do to them. One told to get her slave number ready, another faced with a man waving a gun and saying he was thinking he might like to shoot her. One had another woman come to try to help and she was derided, belittled and threatened as well.

Women on public transportation facing men who try to grab their crotch while other men laughed.

Huge billboard graffiti proclaiming that black lives DON'T matter.

High schools echoing with chants and graffiti that would have been comfortable in Nazi Germany, including the use of the word "heil". Frequent taunts and diatribe using extremely derogatory and hurtful terms thrown at other students, including threats. The police say these are school matters.

A woman approached and harrassed by 4 men, one of who punched her; when she used her martial arts training to flatten him the other men called the police and claimed she had just attacked for no reason. She got handcuffed and hauled away by the police.

Women from deeply religious families being told by their mothers not to wear the hijab, it isn't safe to go outside with it on. Women who have worn it told to take it off and hang themselves with it, they are useless and unwanted so they might as well die.

Children going home crying from KINDERGARTEN after being told by other children that they won't be allowed to be there anymore, they have to go live behind a wall because nobody wants them and they don't belong there. The teachers either unable or unwilling to reassure them.

I can't even begin to imagine the fear and anxiety that many obviously non whites, especially women, much less the openly gay and the obviously handicapped, must be feeling right now. Hunting season is open, no license required.

So easy for those of us who are white, especially white males, to pontificate about "interesting times". so very very sad.

And this probably points out very well how women, minorities (Christians), and gays feel in many Islamic countries.

No, I'm probably wrong It's probably not quite that good for the women there. Gays either.

On an up note though, some of the elite in these countries just took it on the chin, because they won't get what they expected to when they donated heavily to the Clinton Foundation.

[Kaitlyn S]

duplicate post

[Vampyr]

Apparently the difference in popular vote was 400,000. Yet she lost. The electoral system is broken.

This site has a petition you can add your name to. About 10 states and the District of Columbia have signed up so far. The idea is that when enough states sign up the the total electoral votes is 270 or more, the electors in those states will be obliged to vote for whoever won the most popular votes nationally.

In any case, it is not clear what will happen when theTrump University fraud case is heard. Trump will probably settle out of court, but who knows what might happen. We should probably give some thought to what a Pence presidency would be like.

[jonottawa]

Vampyr, on 2016-November-11, 17:58, said:

Apparently the difference in popular vote was 400,000. Yet she lost. The electoral system is broken.

This site has a petition you can add your name to. About 10 states and the District of Columbia have signed up so far. The idea is that when enough states sign up the the total electoral votes is 270 or more, the electors in those states will be obliged to vote for whoever won the most popular votes nationally.

In any case, it is not clear what will happen when theTrump University fraud case is heard. Trump will probably settle out of court, but who knows what might happen. We should probably give some thought to what a Pence presidency would be like.

You sound like the type of person who loses a club game & then recalculates the score at IMPs, only to declare victory!

Bush-Gore 2000 had a much tighter EV (271-266,) it had a slightly larger popular vote gap, and it had a probable steal in Florida where the margin was razor thin (as opposed to this year where the closest state was a Hillary win in NH.)

And yet nobody rioted. Nor did EITHER party make it a priority to legislate a change to a popular vote winner system, which would entail a completely different campaign strategy.

...

This is hilarious, but only if you get the musical reference:

https://twitter.com/...814556429426688

https://twitter.com/...486803582660608

[Al_U_Card]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-November-11, 17:44, said:

On an up note though, some of the elite in these countries just took it on the chin, because they won't get what they expected to when they donated heavily to the Clinton Foundation.

Yeah, baby! Couldn't happen to a bigger bunch of thieves and scoundrels. Power to the people.

[Vampyr]

jonottawa, on 2016-November-11, 18:09, said:

You sound like the type of person who loses a club game & then recalculates the score at IMPs, only to declare victory!

Bush-Gore 2000 had a much tighter EV (271-266,) it had a slightly larger popular vote gap, and it had a probable steal in Florida where the margin was razor thin (as opposed to this year where the closest state was a Hillary win in NH.)

And yet nobody rioted. Nor did EITHER party make it a priority to legislate a change to a popular vote winner system, which would entail a completely different campaign strategy.

Perhaps a second occurrence will make the matter seem more important. Anyway, don't sign the petition if you don't want to (I assume you are an American citizen).