[perko90]

1st hand ... alternative system:

2♠ = invite, no 4CM (either 11-12 bal or a long minor)
Responses:
-- 2NT = min
-- 3NT = max, would accept any invite
-- 3m = "crash landing" = max, but weak holding in suit (Jx or worse) (you bid the suit you don't like)

2NT = transfer to C's (either sign-off or slammish (any continuation shows the strong variety))
3♣ = D's (same as above)

Above is my fav, but might be too complicated for a novice forum.

[NickRW]

 1eyedjack, on 2015-March-28, 05:19, said:

Others have answered your question(s), but I just wanted to comment on the above method.

In UK it is quite popular among the lower echelon players to use 2S to show 11 HCP and 2N to show 12. This is seriously bad.

Not only is having two balanced invites a waste of one bid, it is arguably better to play with no bal invite at all - just pass or blast 3NT.

When you invite you hope to gain when partner can bid 3 (doesn't always by a long shot) and that it will make (also doesn't always do that either). Also 2NT can be one down when 1NT was making.

[mcphee]

An easy solution for you will solve many problems when playing weak NT and that is 2 way stayman. 2!C is NF stayman, 2D GF staymam. So hand 1 allows you to bid 2C looking for a possible H fit, when not found bid C now to play. I would never play weak NT without 2 way stayman, the upside is huge.

[Vampyr]

 mcphee, on 2015-March-30, 07:25, said:

An easy solution for you will solve many problems when playing weak NT and that is 2 way stayman. 2!C is NF stayman, 2D GF staymam. So hand 1 allows you to bid 2C looking for a possible H fit, when not found bid C now to play. I would never play weak NT without 2 way stayman, the upside is huge.

It might be, but the idea has not caught on here where the majority play weak NT, so it can't be as advantageous as you believe.

[rmnka447]

Hand #1 - I'm playing in 3 ♣. Your pal might have the last laugh this time, but next time when 1 NT goes down 150 or 200 and 3 ♣ still makes on a similar hand, you'll get the last guffaw. It can't be too wrong to play in your 9+ card fit unless you're absolutely sure NT makes.

Hand # 2 - I'm passing 2 ♠ or 3 ♠. The high cards in my hand will be of use to partner in ♠s, but partner's ♠ may not be of any use to me in any contract I bid. With a known misfit, I'm out of the auction as quickly as possible anyhow. There's no guarantee pard has any thing at all in the suits I hold and bidding 1 level higher stands a good chance of increasing the set or turning a decent result (2 ♠ making?) into a bad result.

If partner passes, I'm bidding 1 ♥, so I can bid ♦ on the second round. so I'm treating the weak ♦ suit more like a 5 card suit rather than a 6 card suit. If partner gives me grief about it, I'm ready to run out the old "sorry pard, I had a ♦ in wit the ♥s" ploy.

[helene_t]

 mcphee, on 2015-March-30, 07:25, said:

An easy solution for you will solve many problems when playing weak NT and that is 2 way stayman. 2!C is NF stayman, 2D GF staymam. So hand 1 allows you to bid 2C looking for a possible H fit, when not found bid C now to play. I would never play weak NT without 2 way stayman, the upside is huge.

The downside is also huge. You have to tell the opponents about opener's major suit holding whenever you have a strong hand with a minor suit.
And opener won't know after
1NT-2♦
2♥-3m
whether reponder is interested in hearing about a 4-card spades.

And you still can't show invitational hands if 2♣...3m is to play while 2♦...3m is forcing.

And you can't show an invitational hand with five hearts.

I am no fan of transfers in response to weak notrump. Especially by a passed hand it is quite silly. Then again, the whole concept of 12-14 in 3rd/4th is very bad. But it is not so easy to find something that is both simple and effective, and simplicity (along with century-old tradition) seems to be a very high priority in England.

I know mikeH has some high-tech 2-way stayman system which he believes is good and he is probably right but it is probably not something for average EBU club players. And a simple 2-way Stayman doesn't sound great to me.

[NickRW]

 helene_t, on 2015-April-02, 04:54, said:

...Then again, the whole concept of 12-14 in 3rd/4th is very bad. But it is not so easy to find something that is both simple and effective, and simplicity (along with century-old tradition) seems to be a very high priority in England.

I know mikeH has some high-tech 2-way stayman system which he believes is good and he is probably right but it is probably not something for average EBU club players. And a simple 2-way Stayman doesn't sound great to me.

Yeah, people complain that playing 15-17 (or whatever stronger range) in 3rd/4th is "too much memory strain". What they don't seem to realise is that, if they use 12-14 in 3rd/4th, is that it requires a whole different response structure to do justice to it (all the GF and slammy sequences that you have opposite a 1st/2nd 12-14NT become meaningless for example)

[rmnka447]

 helene_t, on 2015-April-02, 04:54, said:

I am no fan of transfers in response to weak notrump. Especially by a passed hand it is quite silly. Then again, the whole concept of 12-14 in 3rd/4th is very bad. But it is not so easy to find something that is both simple and effective, and simplicity (along with century-old tradition) seems to be a very high priority in England.

I know mikeH has some high-tech 2-way stayman system which he believes is good and he is probably right but it is probably not something for average EBU club players. And a simple 2-way Stayman doesn't sound great to me.

Sorry, but having played Kaplan-Sheinwold for about 40 years (weak NT in all positions, all vulnerabilities), I couldn't disagree more about 3rd/4th weak NTs. The preemptive value of 1 NT makes it really difficult for the opponents to compete. If you open these hands with 1 of a minor (which is usual in the US because of 5cM), you're conceding the opponents easy entry into the auction to compete especially with the majors. But in a 4cM opening environment that might not be as distinct an advantage.

I don't rate transfers over weak NTs very highly either. Again in the US, with minimum balanced hands being opened 1 of a minor by strong NTers, responder is bidding a 5cM in response to 1 m anyhow. So transfers opposite side contracts versus most other pairs. Additionally, if the hands produce game, both hands are about equal value so there is no lead into the stronger hand advantage. If there is a potential slam, responder's hand will be the "big" hand, so transfers expose the big hand and provide for lead through it.

Our structure over the weak NT is fairly simple. 2 ♣ is NF Stayman with potential game forcing continuations. 2 ♦ is the August 2 ♦ allowing for run outs with two suited hands. It asks for the NT bidder to bid his longest major regardless of number of cards (♥ with equal length). The response is virtually always at least 3 cards, so you'll get to a decent fit if holding both majors. Depending on any further rebids by responder, you can find a fit with any 2 suiter. We can also use it with game going or invitational 5-5 major hands by raising or jumping to game in opener's major response suit.

Our KO teammates, who also play K-S, play 2 way Stayman by an unpassed responding hand. But after a 3rd or 4th seat 1 NT opener, 2 ♦ switches to being the August 2 ♦ bid.

[Cyberyeti]

 helene_t, on 2015-April-02, 04:54, said:

And you still can't show invitational hands if 2♣...3m is to play while 2♦...3m is forcing.

I assume you use 1N-3m for that if you don't play 4 suit transfers

Quote

And you can't show an invitational hand with five hearts.

Only if you play Smolen, if you don't, 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ can show this

[Zelandakh]

 rmnka447, on 2015-April-02, 21:29, said:

2 ♦ is the August 2 ♦ allowing for run outs with two suited hands. It asks for the NT bidder to bid his longest major regardless of number of cards (♥ with equal length). The response is virtually always at least 3 cards, so you'll get to a decent fit if holding both majors.

...and play at the 3 level in a 7 card fit holding 4252 opposite the round suits. Giving up so much just to handle a rare hand type (weak and 5-5) already seems like a bad idea. It is even worse when you might be playing a level higher than the field without any expectation of making those 9 tricks.

[steve2005]

 pickabidp, on 2015-March-29, 15:08, said:

Alternative:
Playing 4way transfers..
2S to Clubs
If opener has 'good' clubs (you will have to make up
your own decisions as to what is good-bad, depending on
your other limits)
he will bid 2NT..this gives you a choice between 3c (to play)
or knowing clubs will run to bid 3NT.
With the shown hand I would have bid 3C.

Opener will like clubs with Kxx, clubs wont run. Even with A♣ partner has a weak NT your likely open in a suit. So your only real choice is to sign off in 3♣. This was lucky hand.

[steve2005]

And you can't show an invitational hand with five hearts.

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-April-03, 03:53, said:

I assume you use 1N-3m for that if you don't play 4 suit transfers

Only if you play Smolen, if you don't, 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ can show this

1N-2♣-2♦-2♥/1N-2♣-2♠-3♥ is quite fine for INV with 5♥ unless your playing a form of garbage Stayman on 4-4/5-4, but I think that would be ill advised with 5-4 just signoff in your 5-card suit and with 4-4 there isn't even a guarantee of a 4-3 fit.

[Cyberyeti]

 steve2005, on 2015-April-05, 11:07, said:

1N-2♣-2♦-2♥/1N-2♣-2♠-3♥ is quite fine for INV with 5♥ unless your playing a form of garbage Stayman on 4-4/5-4, but I think that would be ill advised with 5-4 just signoff in your 5-card suit and with 4-4 there isn't even a guarantee of a 4-3 fit.

This is cultural, I come from the land of garbage stayman so 2♥ is out of the question here. With 4-4 and complete garbage we tend to remove our weak NT before the double, but you need the agreement that you pull 2♥ to 2♠ always with 3♠/2♥.

[rmnka447]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-April-03, 19:15, said:

...and play at the 3 level in a 7 card fit holding 4252 opposite the round suits. Giving up so much just to handle a rare hand type (weak and 5-5) already seems like a bad idea. It is even worse when you might be playing a level higher than the field without any expectation of making those 9 tricks.

With 4252, your options are to sign off in 3 ♦ weak, pass 1 NT to play, or pass 1 NT then use your 1 NT runout structure should 1 NT get doubled.

Of course, you can use August on hands that you would "garbage" Stayman on. They may not be 5-5, such as Jxxx Qxxx x xxxx where you want to get out of NT before the Doubling starts.

That let's you retain 1 NT - 2 ♣ - 2 ♦ - 2 ♥ as strictly invitational.

Also, by responder rebidding 2 NT over opener's major response to August, responder shows a minor two suiter eliminating the need to designate a different response to show that type of hand. (Responder's rebid of a minor over opener's major response shows that minor and the unbid major as responder's suits.)

[Zelandakh]

 rmnka447, on 2015-April-05, 13:46, said:

With 4252, your options are to sign off in 3 ♦ weak, pass 1 NT to play, or pass 1 NT then use your 1 NT runout structure should 1 NT get doubled.

4252 is Opener's hand in your scenario where Responder has a weak hand with hearts and clubs. With transfers or weak take outs you play 2♥; in August you are committed to the 3 level.

[rmnka447]

Fair enough, but responder can always elect to accept the possibility of a playing 5-2 fit by simply bidding 2 ♥ instead of using August if possibly being pushed to the 3 level seems too risky. Part of playing the weak NT is to be adroit at getting to reasonable spots to play when weak. In this context, getting to a decent spot is usually better than getting to the perfect spot.

If opener holds a 4252 (semibalanced) shape and opens 1 NT, then it is likely that opener holds some values in the short suits anyhow. With, say, something like xx AQxx AKxxx xx opening 1 ♦, then rebidding 2 ♦ would be Ok and limit the hand after a 1 ♠ or 2 ♣ response. However, with something like Kx KJxx Ax Jxxxx opening 1 NT is better then having to rebid 2 ♣ when responder bids 1 ♠. The choice is often a judgement, but treating the hand as balanced when strength is held in the short suits with weakish long suits is usually right.

[helene_t]

 rmnka447, on 2015-April-02, 21:29, said:

The preemptive value of 1 NT makes it really difficult for the opponents to compete.

That is true but a 14-16 1nt does that also and in 3rd seat the frequency of the two ranges are probably similar. In 4th seat probably the 14-16 is more frequent.

My problem with 12-14 in 3rd seat is that it is just barely possibly that you have 14+11=25 HCPs so responder has to have a way to be able to invite game. So you probably play transfers and Stayman and a natural 2NT response just as you do after a 1st/2nd seat 1NT opening. But on the vast majority of the hands you have less than game values and weak takeouts in all four suits would serve you better.

Also, what do you do with 10-11 points in 3rd / 4th seat? Sometimes you want to open a convenient 4-card suit for lead/preemption or because with four spades and 11 points you actually have 15 Pearson points. But opening a suit is a bit risky because partner will make negative doubles aggresively in order to cater to the 15-16 balanced hand which you could also have. And you can't rebid 2NT in response to a negative double with 11 points since it shows 15-16. Some people therefore open 1NT with 11 points in 3rd/4th. Then you are sometimes too high when partner invites.

[mycroft]

Playing K/S I too have issues in 4th seat (I've thought about switching to strong NT 4th in hand), but in third, especially third NV, the weak NT is really nice (playing Precision, we played 10-12 NV 1-3 for exactly that reason). It really is preemptive (at least in a "jam up the partscore battle" sense).

Also, playing K/S (but not in most normal Acol variants, which is what makes Acol very foreign to me) it's not just "barely possible" to have an invite as a passed hand; it's quite likely. It's barely possible to have a *game force*. The issue is that there are hands that don't fit "sound minor opening" and also don't fit "balanced" that in K/S must be passed - even 13s and bad 14s (we had a 3145 with the stiff ♥Q that didn't have a rebid over 1♥ that wasn't a really bad lie. Luckily it was paired with an 18 with otherwise solid hearts and we managed to survive).

It is a flaw in K/S that potentially two strong hands can't open; that hands get passed out that are clear +120s and +130s; that sometimes you are catching up on the second round. But it's a flaw with a serious upside - when we do open 1m, we've got our stuff and the axe is ready.

I do open in third seat very aggressively - if I have a major worth bidding. Partner knows that, we deal with it (and we have the same problem with "could be 5 spades semi-bal and any strength" that strong NTers have). I don't mess around in the minors, because K/S will bite you if you do.