[eagles123]

MP we non vul they vul first seat

x
xx
KJTx
KJTxxx

thx,

Eagles

[ArtK78]

3♣ if you are playing with a partner who will not punish you for a preempt on these cards.

My agreements prevent me from opening 3♣ on these cards. Perhaps that is a good thing.

[ggwhiz]

3♣

Many more good things than bad can happen with the stolen bidding room like a double by lho on 4-3 in the majors and rho bidding hearts on 4-4.

[Jinksy]

3♣ wtp?

[eagles123]

ok so say you do bid 3c (I did) is there any sensible way to bid to slam?

---

thanks,

Eagles

[ArtK78]

6♣?

[kuhchung]

no way to reach 6 and it's about breakeven anyway

as north i would be more worried about making 5

[whereagles]

forget slam. there's no way to be precise after a pree

[the hog]

Had Sth passed getting to 6D would be quite easy. Ths shows one of the disadvantages of making this type of pre empt.

[Trinidad]

the hog, on 2014-December-30, 21:15, said:

Had Sth passed getting to 6D would be quite easy. Ths shows one of the disadvantages of making this type of pre empt.

Exactly. Great comment. I fully agree. The damage that you are inflicting on your partner may be devastating.

And if you apply simple arithmetic you will conclude that you have twice as many opponents as partners. The real math is a little more complex, but it is fully justified to say that what you so imminently correctly, as ever, describe as a disadvantage of the preemptive action will -on balance- be an advantage more often than a disadvantage because then one of your two opponents (or both) will be facing the problem instead of your lonely partner.

Write me up for a WTP 3♣, and, no, I would not have gotten to slam. Next board, please (where my opponents will be suffering from my preempts).

Rik

[johnu]

kuhchung, on 2014-December-30, 18:24, said:

no way to reach 6 and it's about breakeven anyway

A big favorite without a spade lead

[johnu]

the hog, on 2014-December-30, 21:15, said:

Had Sth passed getting to 6D would be quite easy. Ths shows one of the disadvantages of making this type of pre empt.

Did post #5 get edited? You still need to pick up clubs in 6♦ after a spade lead to make in which case 6♣ also makes (except 4 clubs with west which lets east get a club ruff in 6♦). 4-1 diamonds means you could go down several tricks in 6♦ if you have to lose a trick in clubs.

[WesleyC]

The 3♣ opening looks obvious as South because giving up your own bidding accuracy to damage the opponents auction @ 1st/Fav is a winning plan.

However at Matchpoints, I would advance the 3C opening with 3D simply because I don't want to commit to 5m on a hand where 3NT might score 630+. On this hand that might have the unplanned side effect of helping you reach 6m.

[whereagles]

I think a 1st seat 3♣ is obvious. The risk of torpedoing your own bidding as compared to opponents is 1-to-2. That's good odds for me, especially given our very short majors.

In 2nd seat it's not so obvious, as the jam chance is now 50/50, but I would still do it in most cases.

Wesley's MP considerations are also important. I think he's quite right not bypassing 3NT.

[helene_t]

Slam is very good on a non-spade lead and about 50% on a spade lead.

Anyone who has a way to ask for a spade control? We play a direct 4♦ as kickback but maybe 3♦ (if artificial) followed by 4♦ should ask for controls?

[fourdad]

3!c...no hesitation and no slam and no problem.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,
facing th3 3C prempt, counting tricks will tell you, that you
will have 12 tricks 50% of the time, 7 clubs, 3H, 2D, and I guess it could be
cold, but 11 may be the limit, so you should make a move, ..., but are not strong
to force.

I guess 3D is your best bid, although the raise by opener does not promise more than
3+ support, over 4D getting to 6? is still tough.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[nige1]

eagles123, on 2014-December-30, 17:16, said:

ok so say you do bid 3c (I did) is there any sensible way to bid to slam?

---

IMO Opening bid 3♣ = 10, Pass = 9, 1♣ = 8.
Now, there is a conventional way of finding out about ♠ control: Over a pre-empt, it makes sense to use suit bids below 3N as asking bids, to find out about a stop or support or control. Here for example, after 3♣ - 3♠, Opener might rebid as follows

• 3N = ♠ stop e.g. ♠QJx
• 4♣ = (Pre-empt suit) ♠ Shortage. i.e. Singleton or void ♠. Like eagle's hand.
• 4♦ = ♠ Tolerance. 2 ♠. Poor hand. e.g. ♠ x x ♥ x x x ♦ x ♠ Q J x x x x x
• 4♥ = ♠ Enthusiasm. 3+ ♠ e.g. ♠ J x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ A J x x x x x
• 4♠ = ♠ Support. 3+ ♠. Poor hand. ♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ K J x x x x x

[daffydoc]

standard to me for past 50 years is that a jump over a preempt asks for controls in the jumped suit 1st step 0 second step 2nd and 3rd step 1st round control. so 4S over 3c asks and bidding slam is easy. could likely not do this undiscussed as many likely not aware - but is very useful as a pre over a pre is not at all useful. daffy

[ArtK78]

nige1, on 2014-December-31, 06:35, said:

IMO Opening bid 3♣ = 10, Pass = 9, 1♣ = 8.
Now, there is a conventional way of finding out about ♠ control: Over a pre-empt, it makes sense to use suit bids below 3N as asking bids, to find out about a stop or support or control. Here for example, after 3♣ - 3♠, Opener might rebid as follows

• 3N = ♠ stop e.g. ♠QJx
• 4♣ = (Pre-empt suit) ♠ Shortage. i.e. Singleton or void ♠. Like eagle's hand.
• 4♦ = ♠ Tolerance. 2 ♠. Poor hand. e.g. ♠ x x ♥ x x x ♦ x ♠ Q J x x x x x
• 4♥ = ♠ Enthusiasm. 3+ ♠ e.g. ♠ J x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ A J x x x x x
• 4♠ = ♠ Support. 3+ ♠. Poor hand. ♠ x x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ K J x x x x x

I have finally worked out Nige's scoring system. It is the system that is often used to score boxing matches - the 10 point must system.

As I understand it, in the 10 point must system both boxers start out with 10 points in a round. If one of the boxers wins the round, the score for the round would be 10-9. If one of the boxers really destroys the other (but not a KO), the score for the round would be 10-8.

The reason I worked this out is that Nige awarded 8 points to a 1♣ opening bid on this hand. Since I consider a 1♣ opening on this hand to be truly horrific, he must be using the 10 point must system.