[mgoetze]

---

Partner opens 1♠ (5 cards, 11+ points even at this vulnerability) and you respond with a game-forcing 2♥ (also promising 5). Partner raises and you must decide whether to show serious slam interest with a 4♣ cuebid (also denying a spade cue) or to bid a frivolous 3♠. (With total trash 4♥ would just barely be allowed but we don't have that obviously).

What do you choose, and how different would the hand have to be for you to change your mind?

[mike777]

4c no problem yet this is a huge hand, 5 losers.

I expect my next bid will be 4s rkc in h.

pard may have:

KQJxx...xxx...xx....KQx
an adjusted 8 loser hand

but I will risk it.

btw2 with my example hand I would prefer 4h as fast arrival to show this dead minimum, not a picture bid.

[steve2005]

Think will depend on opener's ♠ holding, think you should let your partner know your really interested in slam.

So bid Serious 3N if your playing that.

[MrAce]

I am so serious that I would probably go to slam myself. If not I am definitely starting a serious cue. Otherwise we can not possibly make him cooperate with his xxx or xxxx trumps.

[ArtK78]

As a strong advocate of loser count, I think I can safely say that this is not a hand for loser count. The hand contains 7 winners - no more, no less. It has control of both minors and solid trump. I will make a 4♣ cue bid but then sit back unless partner shows serious interest of his own.

He could have a magical hand like AKQxxx xxx xx Ax and we can make 13 tricks if spades are 3-2. Add the ♠J and we will almost always make 13 tricks. Or he could have this magical hand:

AKxxx
876x
x
Axx

13 virtually cold tricks in hearts (Pard might have bid 4♦ on these cards, so it may be a bit much to hope for this hand - but change a club to a diamond and you still make 6 easily).

Sure, there are hands he could have where game is the limit:

KQJxx
xxxx
Jx
KQ

or

QJTxx
xxxx
KQ
KQ

Let's see what he does over 4♣.

[Cthulhu D]

You have to make a serious try, slam is cold opposite a perfect minimum. To answer your other question I think with the K of diamonds instead of the A, having a stiff spade instead of a stiff club, or a missing heart honor (add the J of D or whatever) so slam isn't as cold and I'd be less excited.

[PhantomSac]

Agree with the others, very serious. Serious enough that I plan to bid beyond game having shown a serious slam try if partner bids 4D over 4C.

[akwoo]

I would've thought that anyone playing serious/frivolous would have agreed on a precise definition. (Slam is cold opposite a perfect minimum sounds like a good precise definition of 'serious', but it might not be yours.)

[mgoetze]

 akwoo, on 2014-December-02, 17:45, said:

I would've thought that anyone playing serious/frivolous would have agreed on a precise definition.

Or, you know, maybe some people recently started playing it in a new partnership and are trying to work out said definition with their partner and asking others for input.

Nah, you're right, that's absurd, so this thread can be closed.

[whereagles]

Dead serious.

4NT.

[mgoetze]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-December-02, 17:44, said:

Agree with the others, very serious. Serious enough that I plan to bid beyond game having shown a serious slam try if partner bids 4D over 4C.

As a follow-up question, how much judgement are you allowing partner here? Does 4♦ mean "I am happy to cooperate" or does it mean "We are playing LTTC, and I have a spade control, so I guess I have to bid 4♦"?

[nige1]

 mgoetze, on 2014-December-02, 15:05, said:

Partner opens 1♠ (5 cards, 11+ points even at this vulnerability) and you respond with a game-forcing 2♥ (also promising 5). Partner raises and you must decide whether to show serious slam interest with a 4♣ cuebid (also denying a spade cue) or to bid a frivolous 3♠. (With total trash 4♥ would just barely be allowed but we don't have that obviously).
What do you choose, and how different would the hand have to be for you to change your mind?

---

IMO 4♣ = 10. Perhaps you could play ...
3N = Serious try (if available that might well be your choice with this hand). Cue-bid = Almost compulsory. 3♠ = ♠A/K/Q doubleton or tripleton. (You might reverse the meanings of 3♠ and 3N). You might bid 4♥ with e.g.
♠ x x ♥ K Q J x x ♦ Q J x x ♣ Q x

[mgoetze]

 nige1, on 2014-December-03, 09:06, said:

3N = Serious try (if available that might well be your choice with this hand). Cue-bid = Almost compulsory.

And this is better than the reverse system why?

[rhm]

 ArtK78, on 2014-December-02, 15:44, said:

As a strong advocate of loser count, I think I can safely say that this is not a hand for loser count. The hand contains 7 winners - no more, no less. It has control of both minors and solid trump. I will make a 4♣ cue bid but then sit back unless partner shows serious interest of his own.

I do not understand this comment.
After a fit has been established does a five loser hand with good trumps opposite an opening bid not seriously suggest you should look for slam?
Since loser count is a quantitative method no more can be expected from such a method.

Rainer Herrmann

[nige1]

deleted

[ArtK78]

 rhm, on 2014-December-03, 09:55, said:

I do not understand this comment.
After a fit has been established does a five loser hand with good trumps opposite an opening bid not seriously suggest you should look for slam?
Since loser count is a quantitative method no more can be expected from such a method.

Rainer Herrmann

I agree with you - you do not understand my comment.

The hand is very good. However, in order to make a slam you are going to need 5 tricks from partner. This can be a long running suit or ruffing tricks combined with some winners.

My point is that a random honor here or there in partner's hand will not be enough to eliminate my losers. Partner needs to provide tricks.

[nige1]

 mgoetze, on 2014-December-03, 09:39, said:

And this is better than the reverse system why?

Whatever turns you on I was confused. If your method is as follows, I like it ...
1♠ - 2♥ -
3♥ - ??

• 3♠ = ART. Mild slam-interest.
• 3N = CUE ♠Q/KA. Serious slam interest.
• 4♣/♦ = CUE Serious slam interest.
• 4♥ = No slam interest.

[mike777]

small add, I think it helps a lot if pard can rebid 4h rather than 3h with some of these 7.5-8 loser hands rather than play it as a picture bid. The odds should be in your favor that opener can come up with 5+ tricks if opener has a normal or better 7 loser hand

[jdeegan]

RU serious? My hand has a likely play for six ♥ opposite two black aces and a black king plus three small ♥. To me that is seriously serious. I almost want to bid 6♥ right away.

All you are really promising with a 'serious' bid is at least a fit and a king better than a minimum with some controls. You have that and more - second round ♣ control, solid ♥, the ♦ ace. If there were room in a bidding structure for 'super serious' your hand would qualify.

[Trinidad]

 mgoetze, on 2014-December-03, 08:29, said:

As a follow-up question, how much judgement are you allowing partner here? Does 4♦ mean "I am happy to cooperate" or does it mean "We are playing LTTC, and I have a spade control, so I guess I have to bid 4♦"?

That depends on the cueing situation. You will have to identify which of the two players has limited his hand.

If the player who makes the serious cue is unlimited ("a perfect maximum will be good for slam") his partner must cooperate below game.
If the player who makes the serious cue is limited then "serious" means "serious, in context" and his partner must use his judgement.

In this case, you are completely unlimited and partner must cooperate.

Rik