[whereagles]

Since pard is a passed hand and we're at "green", I think 2♦ is fine.

1♦ is also ok, but has only lead-directing value. 2♦ complicates opps life a bit and should be safe enough.

[the hog]

Nuno, the fact that pd is a pssed hand is what makes 2D a poor call. 1D is also bead as it achieves nothing. Come on, you are a far better player than to bid this badly.

[the hog]

Jinksy, on 2014-November-07, 10:40, said:

I can hardly believe I'm still optimistic enough to ask this, but do you have a reason for this claim? Perhaps one based on - y'know - reason rather than your traditional 'a reely reely good player I once played with told me this and he was awesome and better than anyone you've played with!!11!!'?

Advantages:
Good enough suit and distribution to not get Xed
Favourable vul
Takes lots of opps' bidding space
Good chance of LHO playing the contract, so it helps P with lead
P has passed, so no chance of preempting him


Disadvantages:
Certain BBO forumers were taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi that they needed an extra D for the bid and find it morally abhorrent without one

Good enough suit and distribution to not get Xed
Not if an opp has KTxx

Favourable vul
True

Takes lots of opps' bidding space
Not really

Good chance of LHO playing the contract, so it helps P with lead
Who says? If anything I would say you are likely to be on lead. lho's 2M is forcing for most people, and even if you play nfb lho may well only have the values for a nfb Only if lho Xs is rho a decent bet to play the contract unless it happens to be in Cs

P has passed, so no chance of preempting him (sic)
With a fit pd has no idea at what level to raise if you pre empt on this type of hand.

P has passed, so no chance of preempting him
Here you are playing with yourself. Your pd could still have a decent 10 count, 2 bullets in fact, and you have reasonable defence.

Certain BBO forumers were taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi that they needed an extra D for the bid and find it morally abhorrent without one
Maybe. Maybe some others play a sounder game than you too.

Look, I overcall on the 1 level possibly lighter than anyone who posts here regularly IF the overcall takes some space away. 1C 1S does and is extremely powerful. Look at the overcalls made by Duboin, Versace and Meckewell for example. I don't overcall on hands where I have little gain and the possibility of great pain.

However as I said before, do as you will. I hope that if I ever play against you anywhere you continue to do this. It is certainly clear from your posts that you are unwilling to take any advice and listen to others, and I am not the only one to say this.

[Cthulhu D]

I'd just point out you said that (1C)-1S takes away a lot of bidding space.. but 2D doesn't? 2D takes away the natural 1NT as well, and two different club raises.

[Cthulhu D]

I'd just point out you said that (1C)-1S takes away a lot of bidding space.. but 2D doesn't? 2D takes away the natural 1NT as well, and two different club raises.

I'm with WelseyC, I'm bidding.

[the hog]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-07, 21:56, said:

I'd just point out you said that (1C)-1S takes away a lot of bidding space.. but 2D doesn't? 2D takes away the natural 1NT as well, and two different club raises.

I'm with WelseyC, I'm bidding.

Like I said keep it up. Thats why some payers win events and others don't.By the way read my comnents again regarding taking up room.

[Cthulhu D]

I did. I will reproduce the comment you made on how much space 2D takes below:

Quote

Not really

Maybe I'm dense and don't appreciate the full rich, informational content of the 11 characters you've used here, but let us not suggest that I didn't read it. It's possible that your comments that P won't know how much to advance were related, but that applies if you're making (1C)-1S on air as well, so it's pretty clear that's not what you're talking about, or maybe it is, in which case I have no idea what your synthesis is because it's mutually contradictory? I dunno. And in the 1S example, they only need to investigate one major suit fit, whereas in the diamonds example there are still 2 major suit fits to explore!

There are plenty of good reasons not to bid 2D, but I'm not at all sure that not taking enough space is not one of them.

[the hog]

lamford, on 2014-November-06, 18:45, said:

I agree with your view of a 1♦ overcall. It is not that it contains any great danger, but it should show a good hand. However, I disagree strongly with the A♦ lead. In my view a club is a stand-out. It beats the contract most of the time partner has a void, and may beat the contract when partner has a trump trick and the ace of hearts and a singleton club. Partner had xxxx AKxx xxxxx none and a club lead beat the contract immediately (declarer was 5-1-1-6 with a good hand). But if he had held Axx Axxx xxxxx x a club lead would still have been a huge winner.

Isn't it likely there would have been a Lightener X with a C void?

[the hog]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-08, 00:05, said:

I did. I will reproduce the comment you made on how much space 2D takes below:



Maybe I'm dense and don't appreciate the full rich, informational content of the 11 characters you've used here, but let us not suggest that I didn't read it. It's possible that your comments that P won't know how much to advance were related, but that applies if you're making (1C)-1S on air as well, so it's pretty clear that's not what you're talking about, or maybe it is, in which case I have no idea what your synthesis is because it's mutually contradictory? I dunno. And in the 1S example, they only need to investigate one major suit fit, whereas in the diamonds example there are still 2 major suit fits to explore!

There are plenty of good reasons not to bid 2D, but I'm not at all sure that not taking enough space is not one of them.

Oh dear, another one who does not understand English. It is not my first language and yet I can understand what others say.

"Look, I overcall on the 1 level possibly lighter than anyone who posts here regularly IF the overcall takes some space away. 1C 1S does and is extremely powerful. Look at the overcalls made by Duboin, Versace and Meckewell for example. I don't overcall on hands where I have little gain and the possibility of great pain.

[Nabooba]

I agree with the Hog on both counts. A lead directing double is certainly possible with a ♣ void. Bidding 1 or 2 ♦s on this is not productive. I certainly would not do it and I don't think many good players would consider bidding. There is little upside.

[Cthulhu D]

the hog, on 2014-November-08, 01:14, said:

Oh dear, another one who does not understand English. It is not my first language and yet I can understand what others say.

"Look, I overcall on the 1 level possibly lighter than anyone who posts here regularly IF the overcall takes some space away. 1C 1S does and is extremely powerful. Look at the overcalls made by Duboin, Versace and Meckewell for example. I don't overcall on hands where I have little gain and the possibility of great pain.

I assure you that I speak English just fine. I don't think you're getting my question. Let's go back to the specific statement I am interested in.

Quote

Jinksy: 2D takes space away from opponents

The Hog: Not really

Then, when I asked, you doubled down. Can I just get you to explain specifically, why you don't think 2D takes space away from the opponent? Is it because the bid clarifies the hand types that responder may have, so despite the fact that you have less bids, you need less to explore?

There are lots of other reasons not to bid 2D obviously (you mention penalty risk for example), but I'm curious about this specific component (why do you think that 2D 'doesn't really' take space away from the opponents) of your reasoning.

[whereagles]

the hog, on 2014-November-07, 20:04, said:

Nuno, the fact that pd is a passed hand is what makes 2D a poor call. 1D is also bead as it achieves nothing. Come on, you are a far better player than to bid this badly.

Ron, I actually see things the other way around: 2♦ seems good to me be because pard is a passed hand. Reasons: (1) opps are quite likely to have a game on; (2) in my experience, 1m-2om overcalls are extremely bothersome to the opening side. I've seen opps having a whole lot of trouble handling situations like this and I'm not talking LOLs.

Passing the ball to you now. Give me some arguments why I shouldn't bid 2♦. Besides safety, that is.. we all know its considerably risky

[the hog]

whereagles, on 2014-November-08, 03:04, said:

Ron, I actually see things the other way around: 2♦ seems good to me be because pard is a passed hand. Reasons: (1) opps are quite likely to have a game on; (2) in my experience, 1m-2om overcalls are extremely bothersome to the opening side. I've seen opps having a whole lot of trouble handling situations like this and I'm not talking LOLs.

Passing the ball to you now. Give me some arguments why I shouldn't bid 2♦. Besides safety, that is.. we all know its considerably risky

I thought I had in the post above.

[Jinksy]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-November-08, 03:02, said:

Can I just get you to explain specifically, why you don't think 2D takes space away from the opponent? Is it because the bid clarifies the hand types that responder may have, so despite the fact that you have less bids, you need less to explore?

If that were the reason, a 1♠ bid would help the opponents a lot more, since it takes away one of the three most likely game spots for them (while using up less space).

[lamford]

the hog, on 2014-November-08, 01:11, said:

Isn't it likely there would have been a Lightener X with a C void?

I mistakenly thought one needed four tricks to beat 4S, not one, and I did not know that West was not about to jump to slam. He had not yet written the contract on his score-sheet nor folded up his cards to give the game away. He was still unlimited and, from my point of view, he could have had AKQJx none Ax KQxxxx, for example, when he will certainly redouble despite the obvious club ruff.

[Jinksy]

the hog, on 2014-November-07, 20:04, said:

Nuno, the fact that pd is a pssed hand is what makes 2D a poor call.

Right, because the top bridge players all agree that third seat is the time to go conservative.

Quote

Good enough suit and distribution to not get Xed
Not if an opp has KTxx

I was talking in proportional terms, as you well know. Yes, KTxx (not to mention KT876532) might be able to penalty pass over the suit (but under it? really?), but it requires a) LHO to pass (smoothly) b) RHO to have a reopening double (that had better be clearcut if W's pass wasn't smooth), c) LHO to have such an otherwise suitably defensive hand that he's not better off pushing for 3N at these colours d) them not to be making slam and so on. I doubt good opps could profitably penalise 2D more than one time in 15 on this hand and auction so far. Weaker opps will manage it much less and for bigger loss when they get it wrong.

Quote

Takes lots of opps' bidding space
Not really

You seem to be backing away from this claim now...

Quote

Good chance of LHO playing the contract, so it helps P with lead
Who says? If anything I would say you are likely to be on lead ... Only if lho Xs is rho a decent bet to play the contract unless it happens to be in Cs

Yeah, this right here is an argument for my point.

Quote

P has passed, so no chance of preempting him (sic)
With a fit pd has no idea at what level to raise if you pre empt on this type of hand.

Like I said in another thread, and like Alan Mould writes in his book on preempts and Mike Lawrence writes in The Complete Guide to Passed Hand Bidding, partner as a passed hand is not invited to get involved. Lawrence: 'You have seen that the range for weak two bids is extreme in third seat. I suggest that if you have a decent hand for partner's suit, you just pass.'

I guess that's totally different for weak jump overcalls?

Quote

P has passed, so no chance of preempting him
Here you are playing with yourself. Your pd could still have a decent 10 count, 2 bullets in fact, and you have reasonable defence.

How does us having potentially good defence mean I'm going to preempt him?

Quote

It is certainly clear from your posts that you are unwilling to take any advice and listen to others, and I am not the only one to say this.

I can point to a specific instance of me having explicitly done so. I have never once seen you do the same. There are plenty more where I've posted a question and quietly changed my mind as a result of the responses, so apparently I do listen to some advice. Perhaps I'm just inexplicably obstinate about taking it when it comes with a heap of abuse and scant reasoning?

As for your argument by committee, I am not the only one to say <disparaging things about your character>, so I guess it's lucky for both of us that's not how these things are determined.

[thebiker]

I was always under the mistaken impression that most of the forums, particularly this one, were for posters to ask sensible questions about the game and receive sensible intelligent answers/opinions from fellow bridge players.
When and why did it become a battlefield for Poster J and Poster H to pursue their own private disagreements over their interpretations of how the game might be played ??!

regards
thebiker

[Jinksy]

I'm not exactly proud of the side of me Hog brings out, but a) you try remaining civil when he stalks you round the forum leaving acerbic comments targeting virtually every post you write, and b) this one at least is still a discussion about the hand in question, so what's your objection here?

[the hog]

Jinksy, on 2014-November-11, 16:52, said:

I'm not exactly proud of the side of me Hog brings out, but a) you try remaining civil when he stalks you round the forum leaving acerbic comments targeting virtually every post you write, and b) this one at least is still a discussion about the hand in question, so what's your objection here?

Stalking you? I have better things to do with my life. However I do not suffer fools gladly.

[lamford]

I think the forum would be a better place if we all try to avoid ad hominem attacks, and I am not pointing the finger at anyone.