[Cthulhu D]

We got a great result on this board, but partner had an impossible decision to make. Do you leave this in?

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Partners Roman Jump Overcall is overcall structure style, so Spades and Clubs limited to about 14 HCP 5/4 or better (either way around, though partner is more likely to have 5 clubs).

There is two ways to bid a strong hand with spades and clubs, the above is one, and the other is start with 2NT which in this situation would show a big hand with clubs and another - in the notes it's defined as a big two suiter that cannot start off with a power double (which would be 15+ semi balanced) or like 8.5+ playing tricks.

[helene_t]

5♠ for me.

[trevahound]

I don't think this is a forcing pass situation, so partner's double shouldn't have the same message it would if we were in a forcing pass. Tough problem. I'm pulling, but I would love to take less phantoms, so I shouldn't. Had the auction been the same with North bidding only 3♥, I think partner would be screaming "let's defend".

[aguahombre]

Pull to what? Maybe I should bid 6S. I know you gave the limitations of partner's first bid; but I think his double suggests a surprise in the expected tricks, not just that it was his turn.

[Cthulhu D]

 aguahombre, on 2014-October-23, 19:49, said:

Pull to what? Maybe I should bid 6S. I know you gave the limitations of partner's first bid; but I think his double suggests a surprise in the expected tricks, not just that it was his turn.

I'll edit this into the OP, but there are two ways to bid a big two suiter with clubs and diamonds - he can start like this, or can start with 2NT which in this situation would show a big hand with clubs and another - in the notes it's defined as a big two suiter that cannot start off with a power double (which would be 15+ semi balanced). I'm not sure if this would effect your decision.

[gszes]

 aguahombre, on 2014-October-23, 19:49, said:

Pull to what? Maybe I should bid 6S. I know you gave the limitations of partner's first bid; but I think his double suggests a surprise in the expected tricks, not just that it was his turn.

My imagination is failing me -- what kind of hand limited to 14 count do you expect
in order to make 6s a favorable contract?

[gszes]

5s

I know it feels "wrong" but with the double fit and totally weak defensive hand
it seems wrong to leave this x in. P cannot fail to x with A A/K and that is
probably insufficient to set 5h given our junk. Even if p has 3 aces we might
have a 10 card spade fit and one opp is void. We have too much junk when our
4s bid could have been significantly better. I have serious doubts that we can make
5s but there could be a slim chance which might keep the opps from x and helping
to downgrade the risk associated with 5s.

[aguahombre]

 gszes, on 2014-October-23, 21:15, said:

My imagination is failing me -- what kind of hand limited to 14 count do you expect
in order to make 6s a favorable contract?

AKQXX XXX V AJTXX seems to be on a hook thru the opening bidder. The double was Polish Lightner intending to lead his own void. AKXXX XXX V AKXXX might not be out of range for their agreements, either. The wording seems to include 5-5's, not just 4-5's.

[Cthulhu D]

5/5 is included yeah

[the_clown]

No way I am passing with the huge double fit. Partner's doubles shows just extra values, not neccesary a desire to defend.

[mgoetze]

 the_clown, on 2014-October-24, 03:48, said:

Partner's doubles shows just extra values, not neccesary a desire to defend.

What's the point of showing "just extra values" on this hand? "Hey partner, guess what, 5♥ makes and 5♠ doesn't - but at least it's closer than you thought!"?

I'm struggling to see what double should be good for except to say "I have 3 tricks against 5♥."

[helene_t]

I don't believe that partner would bid 2♠ with 4/5 as well as with 5/4 when vulnerable. At the very least it must promise five clubs and ten black cards, but even a 2♠ bid that could be 4/6 as well as 5/5 is questionable.

We are obviously not in a forcing pass situation, so I think this should be an action double in which case pulling is clear. But I suppose the double could be played as more penalty oriented. Even then, I pull it. Not if it promises three defensive tricks but that would be a strange agreement.

[billw55]

Admittedly, looking at these cards, defending seems pretty grim. Pass requires a lot of trust in partner, but there is no reason he cannot hold ♥KQx and an ace, or three aces, etc. I grit my teeth and pass.

[the_clown]

 mgoetze, on 2014-October-24, 04:08, said:

What's the point of showing "just extra values" on this hand? "Hey partner, guess what, 5♥ makes and 5♠ doesn't - but at least it's closer than you thought!"?

I'm struggling to see what double should be good for except to say "I have 3 tricks against 5♥."

Partner doesnt know our actual hand. We may have a double fit hand like this or just good fit for spades and 1-1.5 defensive tricks. Bidding when we have defence and a stiff club will be a disaster.

What his double says is just that he doesnt think its right to defend 5♥ undoubled. I am actually happy that he doubled since I may well have passed 5♥ and now I can confidently bid 5♠ and expect to be at most -1.

[Cthulhu D]

 helene_t, on 2014-October-24, 04:22, said:

I don't believe that partner would bid 2♠ with 4/5 as well as with 5/4 when vulnerable. At the very least it must promise five clubs and ten black cards, but even a 2♠ bid that could be 4/6 as well as 5/5 is questionable.

We are obviously not in a forcing pass situation, so I think this should be an action double in which case pulling is clear. But I suppose the double could be played as more penalty oriented. Even then, I pull it. Not if it promises three defensive tricks but that would be a strange agreement.

Yeah, our agreement is/was penalty. We were chatting in the post mortem because it was a tough decision.

The actual hand is uninteresting because your partner was operating and/or had lost touch with reality. In this specific case I had made asemi psyched in a terrible anti-partnership bid because they were on tilt and I figured south had a big hand. The less said about my subsequent decisions the better (like why am I even doubling? If my three tricks cash no one else is going to have had this auction so I will get a top anyway).

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South had a 5/5 two suited 20 count and there are always 10 tricks in hearts and 9 in spades. Obviously we were the only table to find the double fit so as soon as we bid 4S we had all the matchpoints

Edit: vvvvvvv to be clear it is me, I am the lunatic who came up with two spades then double - partner is much more solid!

[jogs]

 Cthulhu D, on 2014-October-24, 06:59, said:

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Your partner has a lot of imagination. An article written by Ed Manfield in TBW(1977) said a double in the direct seat is for penalties usually due to trump strength.

[the hog]

 mgoetze, on 2014-October-24, 04:08, said:

What's the point of showing "just extra values" on this hand? "Hey partner, guess what, 5♥ makes and 5♠ doesn't - but at least it's closer than you thought!"?

I'm struggling to see what double should be good for except to say "I have 3 tricks against 5♥."

Exactly. Pulling is a statement that you are playing with an idiot.

[billw55]

Are you serious that 5♠ did not get doubled?

[whereagles]

Dbl fit here, so 5♠ seems clear.

[mgoetze]

 the_clown, on 2014-October-24, 06:47, said:

Partner doesnt know our actual hand. We may have a double fit hand like this or just good fit for spades and 1-1.5 defensive tricks. Bidding when we have defence and a stiff club will be a disaster.

And what do we do if we have a stiff club and NO defense? Then we have to guess which of bid and pass will give us 5% of the matchpoints, and which will give us 0%?