[ArtK78]

Matchpoints. ACBL BBO pair game. Better than average opps.

Playing a standard structure, you come upon this problem:

---

Do you sit for the double or bid on? If you bid on, what is your call?

[mike777]

I will try pass.

[aguahombre]

Since partner already has shown values in the Majors, her double at these colors seems pretty emphatic to me -- similar to standing on the table first.

If she wanted my input she could pass. 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-2-3? Anyway, a strong suggestion that I put green on the table.

[mikeh]

I don't see partner as 4=4 in the majors.

With 4=4 in the majors, I would expect a double of 3♠ even white v red. With 4=4=1=4, double is crystal clear since the offensive power is reduced by the fact that the majors are not likely to produce offensive tricks and the diamond shortage makes defending attractive and declaring unattractive.

I'm having difficulty figuring out what LHO is doing. He didn't open a weak 2♠ and he didn't jump to 4♥ (which I suspect is what he 'should' have done).

I am going to place partner with something like KJx KQx x AKxxxx or KJx AJx x AKxxxx

I am going to assume that with a balanced minimum he would have passed 3♠ since we are in a forcing pass situation after my 3♦.

So he either has the long club suit with a good hand or he has about 18 or so hcp.

In either case, slam looks very possible and I think I need to involve partner. Unfortunately, I think I should have thought of all of this the previous round. I think passing 3N was a poor decision.

There is a saying: stay fixed. It is intended to refer to your response to an action by the opps that seems to create a real problem, but in this case maybe it should apply to ourselves, since we have, imo, potentially 'fixed' our side by passing 3N.

Indeed, bidding now is committing one of the worst constructive bidding sins.....taking inconsistent positions when there was nothing in the auction to justify changing our mind.

So the question must be: is the evidence in favour of bidding so powerful as to overcome partner's reaction should we bid and be wrong?

I can be very brave on paper, with no real partner. I do think that the odds are overwhelming that slam makes. So I bid 6♣.

Bidding 5♣ is calculated to drive partner insane....there is NO hand on which we can pass 3N and then prefer to play 5♣ rather than double, so partner would need to guess which egregious error I have made and so 5♣ risks missing slam. At least if I bid slam, partner will still think I am crazy but has no decision to make in the bidding.

I will claim that I was in a fugue state the previous round.

[aguahombre]

Mike: if Opener had "something like KJx KQx x AKxxxx or KJx AJx x AKxxxx" for his 3NT bid, why did he not pass 4H around to you --content that he had done is duty? I agree that Pard was unlikely to be 4-4 in the Majors when he bid 3NT, but isn't his Double now suggesting he really did?

It might be quite fortuitous that you didn't follow through with your inference and pull 3NT previously, because the Double seems to suggest your "wrong" view at that point was right and he doesn't want you to reconsider.

[whereagles]

I think 3♦ has to be game forcing here, since it's above the opening suit. Assuming it indeed is GF, then 3NT can be your usual balanced 12-14. In which case pass is clear.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on 2014-October-07, 11:09, said:

Mike: if Opener had "something like KJx KQx x AKxxxx or KJx AJx x AKxxxx" for his 3NT bid, why did he not pass 4H around to you --content that he had done is duty? I agree that Pard was unlikely to be 4-4 in the Majors when he bid 3NT, but isn't his Double now suggesting he really did?

It might be quite fortuitous that you didn't follow through with your inference and pull 3NT previously, because the Double seems to suggest your "wrong" view at that point was right and he doesn't want you to reconsider.

Partner heard you pass 3N. He is just bidding what is in front of his nose. Partners needn't and I would say shouldn't cater to the possibility that we made a bad call last time.

Think about it from his perspective. A pass of 4♥ would be forcing, for sure, but he cannot possibly think that slam is in the picture....it can't be.....we cannot have a slam interested hand and have passed 3N. So a pass wouldn't be slamming....it would be suggesting we bid 4N.

Well, he has (on my construction) no help for us in diamonds and his clubs aren't solid, and he is missing 2 or 3 Aces.

I think that for him to make a forcing pass he'd need good reason to hope for 10 tricks in notrump. So if he is shapely, he'd need at least AKQxxx in clubs. We know he lacks that...he doesn't know that we know that.

If he has the balanced 18 count, say K10x KQx Kx AKxxx, then I think he could again pass because that diamond K will probably solidify our diamonds, but that is a very unlikely construction simply because I don't see how the opps could bid this way (tho as I said earlier, I suspect LHO made a poor call with his 3♠ bid...altho now I think about it, maybe not such a poor call because it seems to have kept almost everyone out of slam).

The important point is that we have to realize that while partner 'showed his values' with 3N, we denied our own values with pass, and he will NOT have judged his hand well in context over 4♥ because he can't imagine our hand looks remotely as slammish as it does. Assuming that he 'went right' with his double ignores the point that when he doubled he 'knew' that we had no slam interest. We cannot lie to partner, in a situation in which we know he will base his actions on what we have told him, and then argue that his call was appropriate given what we actually have.

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on 2014-October-07, 10:20, said:

In either case, slam looks very possible and I think I need to involve partner. Unfortunately, I think I should have thought of all of this the previous round. I think passing 3N was a poor decision.

......

I will claim that I was in a fugue state the previous round.

Mike:

What call would you have made on the previous round "to involve partner?" 3♥? How is that more descriptive than 3♦? You didn't make a negative double, so you don't have a spade suit. You showed game forcing values and a diamond suit. Would 3♥ really have been a better call? Is the QJ9x of clubs the most important aspect of your hand?

As for passing 3NT, it seems that partner has a balanced minimum with major suit values. So this could be our last making spot. If opener has heart cards and a spade stop, he can't afford to pass, as I might not have anything in the majors and I will take us beyond 3NT. If partner had slam suitable values - controls in the majors, good clubs - he could pass 3♠ or bid 4♣ (or 4♦). 3NT sounds like he is putting on the brakes.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on 2014-October-07, 13:54, said:

Mike:

What call would you have made on the previous round "to involve partner?" 3♥? How is that more descriptive than 3♦? You didn't make a negative double, so you don't have a spade suit. You showed game forcing values and a diamond suit. Would 3♥ really have been a better call? Is the QJ9x of clubs the most important aspect of your hand?

As for passing 3NT, it seems that partner has a balanced minimum with major suit values. So this could be our last making spot. If opener has heart cards and a spade stop, he can't afford to pass, as I might not have anything in the majors and I will take us beyond 3NT. If partner had slam suitable values - controls in the majors, good clubs - he could pass 3♠ or bid 4♣ (or 4♦). 3NT sounds like he is putting on the brakes.

The previous round wasn't over 2♥. On the previous round I would have bid 4♣ over 3N.

As for 3N, I disagree that this shows a weak 1N type of hand. With that, we pass.

As for partner taking us past 3N, if we pass as opener over 3♠...sorry, but you are on some planet a long way from where I am.

That may be because it is me who has left reality far behind, of course. I don't claim infallibility.

However, if you accept that weak notrump hands with both majors should pass (and I know you don't but bear with me) then responder will usually reopen with a double. Indeed, there are only a few hand-types on which he shouldn't reopen with a double, and every one of those hands is one on which he would pull a 3N bid based on a weak notrump hand. That isn't to say that he will never double and pull, just that he will always double if he wants you to bid 3N with a balanced notrump with both majors stopped. He may then, for example, bid a quantitative 4N, or pull to a minor, strongly slamming, etc.

This approach means that one can always pass here with a weak notrump, allowing 3N to be value-showing.

What action would you take over 3♠ with KJx KQx x AKxxxx, btw?

Pass and then over double?

And of course, if 3N shows a weak 1N, pass shows something else, and now responder's choices will be impacted. He won't double to protect against the weak notrump hand with both majors, because opener will have denied that hand.

Thus, one cannot answer the OP question without an assumption as to 3N. I suspect that most would play it the way you do but, and I mean no disrespect to you at all, I see that as simply bad bridge.

I confess that I would never have this problem in any of my regular expert partnerships because I usually play a weak 1N opener....now 3N would definitely include a 15-17 balanced along with my 3=3=1=6 example.

[SteveMoe]

PASS.

[SteveMoe]

Pass. I expect partner is either 3=4=1=5 or 3=4=2=4 and 14 or so.

[billw55]

Pass also.

Although on reflection, this is more difficult than I first thought.

[kenrexford]

3S was bid with long hearts and the spade King. The long hearts are at best Queen high.

Partner probably has 3235 pattern with Qxx or QJx in spades, probably also heart Ace.

I bet that the only slam is 6D because of the lead.

[gszes]

IMHO the 4Hx means I have a minimum for whatever my previous 3n promised.

The real discussion should start here what does 3n mean over 3s??? w/o
a firm agreement on this topic there is no basis for understanding 4hx.

Is 3n leb style showing heart stop min and no spade stop (with the
considerable risk of wrong siding 3n) or (possibly more useful)
a spade stop with no heart stop? This might assume x would be used
to cover whatever was not covered by leb and leave pass for extra value
hands.

Is 3n a balanced min with stops in both majors? (my favorite though it
gives up on 3sx)?

Something else?? This highjacks the OP but ouch what else to do. If we
are using my favorite we pass and lead the club Q.