[VixTD]

The auction started the same way at two tables in a three-table cross-IMP pairs event:

---

At neither table was 3♠ alerted. Both NS pairs play basic cue-bidding in which first-round controls are shown before second-round (with some exceptions).

The North player at the other table jumped straight to 6♥ over 4♠. This North would probably have done the same had 3♠ been alerted, but thought that this would discourage South from correcting the trump suit to spades, so considered it a breach of law 73C and embarked on a round of cue-bidding. I rather suspect they should have continued with 6♦ over 5♥, but having made a token effort, they just bid the contract they wanted to be in all along.

At the other table justice was served when South corrected to 6♠, and 7♥ went one off.

What do you think North's logical alternatives are over 4♠ and 5♥?

[ahydra]

I play in a very regular partnership that's been going 3 years now and we don't even have a meaning for 4S over 3S in that sequence. I imagine that's the case for NS here too, so North can probably guess the wheel has come off and just bid 6H if he wants to.

If you argue that 4S should indicate the SA but deny the CA and DA, then 5C and (possibly) 4NT are the LAs IMHO. (Or even 5S, playing Exclusion, but for grand you will need to know about that CK and you might run out of room) I don't think passing 5H is an LA given that South showed strong slam interest with 4S and your hand is awesome.

ahydra

[Vampyr]

VixTD, on 2014-September-02, 07:36, said:

At the other table justice was served when South corrected to 6♠, and 7♥ went one off.

Just wondering whether there is a natural meaning for 3♠.

[Bbradley62]

ahydra, on 2014-September-02, 07:52, said:

If you argue that 4S should indicate the SA but deny the CA and DA, then 5C and (possibly) 4NT are the LAs IMHO. (Or even 5S, playing Exclusion, but for grand you will need to know about that CK and you might run out of room) I don't think passing 5H is an LA...

I agree with this, although anyone who can forget splinters is probably not playing Exclusion.

[Bbradley62]

VixTD, on 2014-September-02, 07:36, said:

At the other table justice was served when South corrected to 6♠, and 7♥ went one off.

On a spade lead and careful play, I still don't think NS should be punished for making 7♥.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2014-September-02, 08:07, said:

Just wondering whether there is a natural meaning for 3♠.

I've seen players who didn't realize it's a splinter ("splinters are double jumps, aren't they?") assume it's some kind of "super reverse", like 6-5 with extra values (since people will often make a normal reverse with 6-5 and intermediate values).

EDIT:

Oops, that IS a double jump. I was thinking of auctions like 1m-1♠-3♥. This is a splinter because a normal reverse would be forcing, and you don't need two forcing, natural bids.

[Cyberyeti]

Worth checking if they play kickback or exclusion, as 4♠ would then ask aces. Also worth checking what 3N means over 3♠.

Assuming nothing interesting comes out of the questions, it shows ♠A, no minor suit ace and slam interest so 4N is entirely plausible and now partner will show 1 keycard (presumably the A♠) and now you're on a guess, you might be in a slam opposite Qxxx.

Depends now if you play 3041 or 1430, if you play 1430, the auction will go 5♣-5♥ if pessimistic which partner may wake up and pass or if they have more sophisticated agreements partner will probably bid 6♣, you bid 6♥ and now I think partner will wake up and pass.

If you play 3041 you're bidding a slam as it will go 5♦-5♥(partner reads as Q ask)-5♠ and now you know what's going on and just bid 6♥ and I think partner will pass.

[FrancesHinden]

No player who thinks 3♠ is natural on this auction plays either kickback or exclusion.

All these fancy invented auctions are irrelevant. They are not auctions of peers of a player who thinks 3♠ is natural, even auctions giving the benefit of the doubt to the NOS. Give 100 North players who habitually play with partners who are peers of the South player the auction, and ask them what 4♠ means. I reckon 99 of them will say it shows partner doesn't realise it's a splinter.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-September-02, 15:15, said:

No player who thinks 3♠ is natural on this auction plays either kickback or exclusion.

All these fancy invented auctions are irrelevant. They are not auctions of peers of a player who thinks 3♠ is natural, even auctions giving the benefit of the doubt to the NOS. Give 100 North players who habitually play with partners who are peers of the South player the auction, and ask them what 4♠ means. I reckon 99 of them will say it shows partner doesn't realise it's a splinter.

Not necessarily, ask him, one or both may have had a brain fart and seen it initially as a (natural in their system) 2♠ for all we know. Also the auctions I gave were if they were NOT playing kickback/exclusion.

[blackshoe]

There's too many "other tables" in the OP.

[VixTD]

ahydra, on 2014-September-02, 07:52, said:

I play in a very regular partnership that's been going 3 years now and we don't even have a meaning for 4S over 3S in that sequence. I imagine that's the case for NS here too, so North can probably guess the wheel has come off and just bid 6H if he wants to.

FrancesHinden, on 2014-September-02, 15:15, said:

No player who thinks 3♠ is natural on this auction plays either kickback or exclusion.

All these fancy invented auctions are irrelevant. They are not auctions of peers of a player who thinks 3♠ is natural, even auctions giving the benefit of the doubt to the NOS. Give 100 North players who habitually play with partners who are peers of the South player the auction, and ask them what 4♠ means. I reckon 99 of them will say it shows partner doesn't realise it's a splinter.

I agree that exclusion etc. are red herrings, but surely partner has either forgotten that 3♠ is a splinter, or has something like ♠Axx ♥AQxxx ♦xx ♣Kxx and wants to investigate a grand slam. The unauthorized information suggests it's the former, so taking any action from among logical alternatives that will deter partner from correcting to spades is disallowed.

[lamford]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-September-02, 15:15, said:

Give 100 North players who habitually play with partners who are peers of the South player the auction, and ask them what 4♠ means. I reckon 99 of them will say it shows partner doesn't realise it's a splinter.

I would agree, but if you asked 100 players and told them that partner alerted 3♠, explained it as a splinter, and then bid 4♠ they would not answer that way, and they are the people we want to poll. They would probably say that it shows the ace of spades, and if you asked them to give a hand for partner they would give something like Axxx AQJxx Qx xx, and I would tend to think that 7H is therefore an LA for these peers. Even opposite Axxx AQJxx xx Jx it is excellent.

I thought at first it would be difficult to go off in 7H, but winning a putative trump lead in North and cashing the ace, king of diamonds is fatal, so adjusting to 7H-1 is reasonable.