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Mistaken bid? 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 16:17



South opened 2 alerted as mini roman, 4-4-4-1 or 4-4-5-0 with opening count.

North bid 1 accepted by East who now bid 2.
North bid 2 out of turn which East again accepted.
Director was called on each infraction. South passed
West now thought she could not bid, that 2 had finished the bidding

Only alert was by north mini-roman

__________________________________________________________________________________________
__________Shouldn't bid been alerted since they play new suit forcing over weak 2 bids???????????
South if he opened a weak 2 should have alerted the 2 SPADE bid, otherwise he was bidding [PASS} on UNAUTHERIZED info
__________________________________________________________________________________

CC says they are playing mini
EW would make 4
NS made 2
Director was called when dummy came down and she said she would look at the scores afterwords.
EW had to fight to get director to give AVERAGE to both.


Was this correct? Comments welcome
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#2 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 18:04

If their agreement is mini-Roman, South is allowed - required, in fact - to remember that that *is* their agreement for the purposes of Alerting, but not for the purposes of her own auction.

Things kind of break down a bit with insufficient bids, especially as in the ACBL, *NO MEANING* can be assigned to an insufficient bid or calls and decisions afterward.

So:
  • After 2!-p-1-2: I think that this "usual hand" will pass happy to have got out intact. Note that had North bid 2, correctly, South would have to Alert this as "pass or correct", but bid as if partner had made a (presumably forcing - what does the card say about new suits over the weak 2 bids they do play?) call.
  • After ...p (? or no call)-no call-2-p: I don't think any other call is a reasonable LA (partner would double with a huge hand, wouldn't he?) but it's worth checking.
  • After ...p-, why West thought that the auction was over I don't know, as only two passes had been made after the last call and the TD was there (the TD *was* still there, right?)


Unless South is known to forget mini-Roman, E-W got the correct agreement and the correct explanations (if I as South was asked about 1, I would say "2 would have been P/C; I don't know about 1"). I would ask peers, giving North's explanation of 2 as "weak 2 in diamonds" (with whatever caveats as to style I can find out - is this a bad weak 2 or "about expected" for this partnership (were it some other suit, obviously)?) and see if anyone takes a call after 2-p.

Specifically, E/W are not entitled to the knowledge that S forgot and misbid (again, unless North has experience of this before). E/W are not entitled to "what North's bids would have meant if they were playing what South thought they were playing when she opened", either - well, they are, yes, but only in context of "if you had opened 2 weak, what would <> have meant?" and certainly not as what partner has in this auction. Yes, that sometimes means that those who misbid get the better of the result (in the context of weak calls, it's more likely; more yet when both the "natural" and the "systemic conventional" meaning is weak (See Ghestem, or Suction as it's usually played in my area (the next suit up, or the other two, or the suit bid, because bidder forgot again)). This breeds the concept of "systemic germs" and "CD", but it doesn't give them any context in Law.)

If, however, South is not convinced that North has given the right explanation of their agreement - if she thinks they "switched to weak 2 last week and haven't updated the card" or the like - then all that gets thrown out the window, and South must explain North's bids (as she can, at least) in the context of a natural 2. But when there is no doubt that North is right, then to explain something else is MI.

[Edit to add: I do not believe that AVE is a legal score, unless the TD erred (by, for instance, not remaining at the table to ensure everyone knows what's going on and that even with all of this, three passes are required to end the auction). Even then, I would expect an Assigned Adjusted Score, not an Artificial one. If South is determined to have no LA to passing either 2 or 2, and there is no history that would imply that N had prior experience about these forgets, then E/W have no case (but my sympathy. Not much sympathy, as both East and West could have done saner things after the irregularities, but sympathy nonetheless). If the TD determines there is another LA that is less successful for South, then the result of South making that call should be assigned. "Checking the scores" should be actively discouraged, especially in a case like this where not everyone, even were they to play a weak 2, would open. After pass, it's much easier to get to 4, I am sure].
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 18:05

View Postdickiegera, on 2014-August-07, 16:17, said:

Director was called when dummy came down and she said she would look at the scores afterwords.
EW had to fight to get director to give AVERAGE to both.


Was this correct? Comments welcome

Nope.

Why would West think she could not bid? Why did South pass 2? These are questions the TD should ask these players.

A 2 response to 2 would ordinarily be forcing. However, North bid an insufficient 1 which was accepted by East, so the fact that North wanted to bid 1 is authorized information to South (Law 16A1{a}). Then North bid 2, again accepted by East, and again AI to South. So I don't think South "has to" treat it as forcing. So the auction has gone (after the corrections) (2)-P-(2)-P-( P) to West, who passes because she got confused? Where was the TD at this point? Did he not explain that the auction after North's correction should proceed normally? Did West not try to clarify whether she could call at this point? Anyway, she passed. So now North is declarer in 2. So? Absent TD error or MI, there is no basis in law for a score adjustment. When you accept RHO's insufficient bid or call out of rotation there is no further rectification. The TD should have let the result stand.

You should not "fight" with the Director. That could lead to disciplinary penalties.

Addendum: If there had been TD error as a basis for score adjustment, then both sides should get Average plus. If MI had been a basis for score adjustment, the score should probably have been adjusted to 4 by East, making 4. OTOH, you indicated there was no MI.
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#4 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 19:31

Was North drunk? Or maybe he was Hideous Hog?
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 20:39

View Postmycroft, on 2014-August-07, 18:04, said:



South must explain North's bids (as she can, at least) in the context of a natural 2.



The above would have been sufficient. The rest of the post in this regard is incorrect (except that South must bid, along with alerting and explaining according to her original misremembering of the agreement). I am very fond of Herman, but the De Wael School has been entirely discredited.

In any case, I do not think that a forcing change of suit after a weak two is alertable in many jurisdictions. I could be wrong about the one in question though.
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 21:51

ACBL. Not alertable. Would be alertable if not forcing.
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-07, 21:56

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-August-07, 21:51, said:

ACBL. Not alertable. Would be alertable if not forcing.


Here, unless the Blue Book has changed, neither is alertable. It it (or, I hope, was) a most unsatisfactory regulation.
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#8 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2014-August-08, 01:10

View PostVampyr, on 2014-August-07, 20:39, said:

In any case, I do not think that a forcing change of suit after a weak two is alertable in many jurisdictions. I could be wrong about the one in question though.

This was considered at the last EBU L&E meeting and it was decided that neither forcing nor constructive non-forcing meanings were unexpected and therefore were not alertable, but "weak" was unexpected and therefore alertable.
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#9 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2014-August-08, 03:26

Quote

North bid 1 accepted by East who now bid 2.
North bid 2 out of turn which East again accepted.
Director was called on each infraction. South passed
West now thought she could not bid, that 2 had finished the bidding

Why is an auction which starts with a misbid/misexplanation and includes an insufficient bid and a bid out of rotation (or a late correction - it is not clear) and possible misdirection by the TD in simple rulings??
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#10 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2014-August-08, 03:33

View PostRMB1, on 2014-August-08, 03:26, said:

Why is an auction which starts with a misbid/misexplanation and includes an insufficient bid and a bid out of rotation (or a late correction - it is not clear) and possible misdirection by the TD in simple rulings??

To me it looks like the simple fact that we have a director who has failed to do his job?
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#11 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2014-August-08, 03:34

View PostVampyr, on 2014-August-07, 20:39, said:

The above would have been sufficient. The rest of the post in this regard is incorrect (except that South must bid, along with alerting and explaining according to her original misremembering of the agreement). I am very fond of Herman, but the De Wael School has been entirely discredited.

I think Mycroft is correct here, and not falling into the de Wael fallacy. If the actual agreement is "mini-Roman", South should explain North's call in that context. If their actual agreement is "weak two in diamonds" then South should explain North's call in that context.

De Wael school would be to explain it as a response to mini-Roman irrespective of the actual agreement (because you know that is what partner meant). That is wrong. But you seem to be saying that South should explain it as a response to a weak two irrespective of the actual agreement, which is the opposite mistake.

I realise OP is not in England, but the EBU's position on this agrees with Mycroft:

BB 2D7 said:

It is proper to use any unauthorised information which has been made available by partner to help a player to alert and explain the partnership understanding accurately, but this information must not be used to help in the bidding and play.

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#12 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-August-08, 13:59

heh, what campboy said. South now remembers the agreement; South now knows that she misbid; South *must* explain North's bids according to their agreement, not what she thought it was when she opened, or what North thought the bid meant when he bid (except in that in this case, North happens to be right). South must *bid* as if she didn't hear, of course.

Were North to be wrong - or were South to not be absolutely certain North was right - then to explain North's calls according to North's (incorrect) explanation of the meaning of South's calls would be very deWael.
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#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-August-10, 18:45

View Postgordontd, on 2014-August-08, 01:10, said:

This was considered at the last EBU L&E meeting and it was decided that neither forcing nor constructive non-forcing meanings were unexpected and therefore were not alertable


This is a shame. In this case I think that alerting an agreement because it is unexpected is the wrong approach; the correct approach IMO is to allows players to assume a specific agreement when there is no alert. This is an instance where opponents will often need to know the answer, and may give away too much by asking.
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