[phil_20686]

So this is a play problem which doesnt appear to be that hard, but a number of declarers including myself went wrong. Nearly half the field went off in the EC on this board.

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On a trump lead, I put the heart T in and it held. Plan the play.

[dake50]

Is there any other than ruffing spades (near dummy reversal) to 10 tricks? Start CAK+DA, then SK.

[phil_20686]

dake50, on 2014-August-01, 06:59, said:

Is there any other than ruffing spades (near dummy reversal) to 10 tricks? Start CAK+DA, then SK.

On a trump lead, assuming they contiune clubs on the spade K, you can get at most 6 trumps and AKA if you play this way. That is not enough tricks. It seems to make more sense to ruff clubs than spades to me anyway.

[rhm]

dake50, on 2014-August-01, 06:59, said:

Is there any other than ruffing spades (near dummy reversal) to 10 tricks? Start CAK+DA, then SK.

why spade ruffs?

♣A
♣K, diamond discard
♣ruff
♦ finesse

If it wins
♣ruff
♦A
♦ruff

spade

Of course this might not work but what else?

Not sure I would put in the ♥T at trick one. I need the heart honors to ruff high if West has the ♥K and East does not follow to the fourth club and the third diamond.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2014-August-01, 10:17, said:

why spade ruffs?

♣A
♣K, diamond discard
♣ruff
♦ finesse

If it wins
♣ruff
♦A
♦ruff

spade

Of course this might not work but what else?

Rainer Herrmann

This was my first thought

[jogs]

What about small spade on trick two? Maybe East will duck ♠A. West can't hurt you if he wins.
Even if the diamond finesse is on, you need 6 heart tricks to make 4♥.

[whereagles]

I'm going to finesse the diamond right away, intending to try and ruff a diamond later with the queen if needed. Not sure if this is a variant of previous ideas.. probably not.

[gnasher]

jogs, on 2014-August-01, 13:54, said:

What about small spade on trick two? Maybe East will duck ♠A. West can't hurt you if he wins.
Even if the diamond finesse is on, you need 6 heart tricks to make 4♥.

To make 4♥, you need six trumps, two clubs, ♦A, and either ♦Q or a long diamond.

Suppose you play a spade and they win and play a trump. You ruff a club and do what? If you take a losing diamond finesse they may play a third trump. If you play a diamond to the ace, ruff a club, and now pay a diamond, you risk losing a diamond ruff when East had ♦Kxxx. If you ruff a spade, ruff a club, and now take a losing diamond finesse, they can force you so that you don't make the long diamond.

[rhm]

jogs, on 2014-August-01, 13:54, said:

What about small spade on trick two? Maybe East will duck ♠A. West can't hurt you if he wins.

Really?
Assume West to have the ♠A and ♦Kxx and ♥Kxx.
This is not far fetched giving the trump lead.
Let's say diamonds break.
It will take a good player not long to see that continuing trumps away from the trump king is unlikely to cost and might well gain as it does on your line.
I will get my 6 trump tricks and will be able to establish the fourth diamond even though the diamond finesse fails for ten tricks.
You will be able to get 6 trump tricks by delaying the diamond finesse and ruffing clubs. But you will not be able to establish the diamonds, because you must loose then two diamond tricks. You get forced in spades before if you ruff twice in dummy.

Only a poor East will not see the need to go in to continue the trump attack with the singleton club in dummy. Now you go down even though the diamond finesse works, because you will not get 6 trump tricks.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

whereagles, on 2014-August-02, 02:38, said:

I'm going to finesse the diamond right away, intending to try and ruff a diamond later with the queen if needed. Not sure if this is a variant of previous ideas.. probably not.

This is a different and probably an inferior line.

For example

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If you do not play a club at trick two you are down

Rainer Herrmann

[whereagles]

@Rainer: you're probably right. Diamond was my instinct, and I keep following those more and more

[jogs]

rhm, on 2014-August-02, 03:22, said:

Really?
Assume West to have the ♠A and ♦Kxx and ♥Kxx.
This is not far fetched giving the trump lead.
Let's say diamonds break.
It will take a good player not long to see that continuing trumps away from the trump king is unlikely to cost and might well gain as it does on your line.
I will get my 6 trump tricks and will be able to establish the fourth diamond even though the diamond finesse fails for ten tricks.
You will be able to get 6 trump tricks by delaying the diamond finesse and ruffing clubs. But you will not be able to establish the diamonds, because you must loose then two diamond tricks. You get forced in spades before if you ruff twice in dummy.

Only a poor East will not see the need to go in to continue the trump attack with the singleton club in dummy. Now you go down even though the diamond finesse works, because you will not get 6 trump tricks.

Rainer Herrmann

Play it out. One of those expected trump tricks from declarer's hand may disappear, overruffed by the ♥K.

[rhm]

jogs, on 2014-August-02, 08:45, said:

Play it out. One of those expected trump tricks from declarer's hand may disappear, overruffed by the ♥K.

I give you two different sample layouts:

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If you follow my line 4♥ makes in both cases against any defense
If you play a spade at trick 2 4♥ is down in both cases on reasonable defense.

If you still believe a spade at trick 2 is a good idea maybe you produce a reasonable sample layout where a spade at trick 2 is necessary to make 4♥.

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

rhm, on 2014-August-02, 03:22, said:

I will get my 6 trump tricks and will be able to establish the fourth diamond even though the diamond finesse fails for ten tricks.
You will be able to get 6 trump tricks by delaying the diamond finesse and ruffing clubs. But you will not be able to establish the diamonds, because you must loose then two diamond tricks. You get forced in spades before if you ruff twice in dummy.

Only a poor East will not see the need to go in to continue the trump attack with the singleton club in dummy. Now you go down even though the diamond finesse works, because you will not get 6 trump tricks.

Rainer Herrmann

I think the only way diamond finesse before ruffing 3rd club superior is when East holds something like
AQx
xx
Kxx
Hxxxx

Playing clubs first may create trump trick for East who may have originally held Kxx trumps. After that it's very tuff if possible to not lose 2 more . Only this came to my mind where diamond finesse first gains. But I do not claim playing diamonds is better play.

Or do we have a way to prevent losing 2 more? I mean I am following your suggested line. Which was Cl A-K-ruff-Dia finesse.

Damn! Trying to type all this on iPhone when I forgot my reading glasses is a torture!

[phil_20686]

So I erred the same way that whereEagles did. Playing a diamond at trick two, believing that i needed the diamond finesse.

On both of the layouts which rainer suggested, a diamond at trick two also wins. Its actually quite hard to come up with a layout where a diamond at trick two fails when ruffing a club works. Ruffing a club first can also lose if lho is 22 in the minors, which is maybe not that likely, whereas if the diamond finesse holds you can cash the diamond ace, now play AK of clubs and ruff a club, and finally play a diamond off the dummy. Unfortunately the layout was:

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So after diamond to the TQK and a trump, I played AK of clubs and ruff a club diamond to the A and ruff the last club, but now i have no way back to hand except playing a spade, and now they arranged to ruff the winning nine of diamonds, as the spade ace was with the long diamonds.