How Many NT after 12-14 NT
#1
Posted 2014-June-03, 09:12
your hand:
AKQ2
AK98
T
A987
#2
Posted 2014-June-03, 09:28
ahydra
#3
Posted 2014-June-03, 09:28
#4
Posted 2014-June-03, 09:32
#5
Posted 2014-June-03, 09:45
eagles123, on 2014-June-03, 09:32, said:
Other people have other bids which accomplish the same thing (some would show the stiff diamond, what are 3any and 4m for you ?), I'm not showing off, I'm just saying I would not look for NT yet as if partner has 4 clubs, it's very unlikely to be the right spot.
#6
Posted 2014-June-03, 10:13
eagles123, on 2014-June-03, 09:32, said:
IMO, when the answer to the OP's question --given the OP's methods or lack thereof ---is being covered, it is quite o.k. to share methods for others to consider, accept, or reject for their own partnerships. It is a bonus; and unlike some other posters, I don't believe Cyber's intent is to show off (although I would rather keep delayed Texas and Smolen).
Many players have the ability to combine quantitative inquires with a probe for alternate strain. I have found many who differentiate between 4S quantitative and 4NT quantitative in similar situations to invite an alternate minor-suit slam.
Indeed, 4S is an otherwise idle bid after:
1N-2C
2D-?...which we would do well to consider using to confirm or deny possible minor strain interest.
#7
Posted 2014-June-03, 11:44
But for the question, I bid 6NT if I can't find clubs. This is above average 20 count, the slam opposite 12 will rarely be cold, but most often it will have a combination of chances.
#8
Posted 2014-June-03, 12:35
Seems like an easy 6NT to me.
Trying for 7 is nice but do we have gadgets for it? No? Then stick to 6NT.
#9
Posted 2014-June-03, 12:45
Suppose Smolen is available. I could try 3♠, hoping that partner has a doubleton heart. If he does not, I can blast 6NT. But, what if he does?
1NT-2♣
2♦-3♠
3NT-?
At this point, I know that partner has 8+ cards in the minors. I also found out that partner has a doubleton heart, meaning a cover for my losers if he has a club fit.
I also have made it impossible for partner to play me for five clubs.
So, I could now bid 4♣. Partner will expect me to have 4504 pattern. He will be wrong. That said, he won't support clubs without four of them. So, this way I find out about the club fit, or at least he does.
This sequence will then allow one of us to locate the King and Queen of clubs, which is a good thing. The problem, however, is that he will expect a club void.
But, maybe I could have 4-5-1-3 shape? I'm not sure how anyone else handles this sequence, and I am damned sure not telling what I do. But, this is OK if I can have 4513, because then partner can find out that I don't have the diamond Ace or void, and I probably want a 9-fit anyway.
Could be interesting...
-P.J. Painter.
#10
Posted 2014-June-03, 12:47
Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 09:28, said:
It's a bit naughty of eagles to go off on one when you're simply looking for a 4-4 fit. Why didn't he just bid 1N-6N?
I prefer to use 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥ as 6H/4S invitational and so this hand is a clear case for Baron(2♦-2♥-2♠).
#11
Posted 2014-June-03, 12:47
eagles123, on 2014-June-03, 09:32, said:
This is uncalled for...
Basically the answer to your question is that it would not occur to me to think of bidding any amount of NT. Just like Cyberyeti, I would search for the club fit. It is quite obvious that it is not really relevant how you and your partner do that. But it should be even more obvious that you do not commit to any number of no trump before you have investigated a club fit. Somewhere between 2♦ and x NT you should have a bid for that.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#12
Posted 2014-June-03, 13:36
wanoff, on 2014-June-03, 12:47, said:
I prefer to use 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥ as 6H/4S invitational and so this hand is a clear case for Baron(2♦-2♥-2♠).
Everybody has different methods here, for us 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ is just 5+♥/4♠ F1.
Quote
A general question though to Americans who play a weak no trump, is there any point in playing Smolen over a weak NT ? as the major benefit of playing the resulting contract from the strong hand doesn't apply.
#13
Posted 2014-June-03, 13:53
Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 13:36, said:
Not relevant. Same auction applies if Smolen not available. You just bid 3♥ instead.
-P.J. Painter.
#14
Posted 2014-June-04, 10:50
Playing second round Texas transfers, some use a 4♠ rebid over 2♦ for the same purpose with the same follow-up structure. Agaian that would allow us to find a potentially better club slam.
In EBU Modern Acol the immediate 2♠ response is Baron and should be preferred to 2♣ on this hand type.
Assuming nothing clever we have a problem. I rate this hand as 21 so we want to be in slam absent further distributional information. Hence 4NT is out for me. So what are the choices? Well we could blast 6NT but that seems a little precipitous. We could bid clubs but partner will support with 3 and we may not be able to differentiate, while playing in a 4-3 fit on that suit might be awkward. So the only real option seems to be to follow Ken's example and sell the hand as 5-4 majors. Except that I think I prefer to sell the hand as 5♠-4♥ because that chunky AKQx suit might protect us a little if things do end up going off the rails.
In any case, to answer any NT question we have to know the system in play. There is no standard so it is difficult without reference to your own methods. What would an immediate 2♠ response have been eagles? Perhaps there is an alternative within your own system that you have not considered.
#15
Posted 2014-June-04, 11:11
1N-2♠ varies, I've seen it played as baron, 11 points (you bid 2N with 12), weak t/o into either minor, clubs or (weak with one minor or GF with both).
#17
Posted 2014-June-04, 12:15
![;)](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
#19
Posted 2014-June-04, 15:28
Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 09:28, said:
Thanks cyber, it's good to hear of ideas that might not be considered as standard, makes you pick on holes in your own methods and try to plug them. I have no MSS after stayman, and while I play strong NT and smolen, I'll suggest we use a 3♦ rebid for MSS, as this is going spare at the moment for us.
It certainly helps to hear of other takes and ideas around a topic. A saner response than the raw numeric requested, and indeed the poster surely welcomed such a reply by the inclusion of a "something else" category that obviously needs explanation if chosen.
#20
Posted 2014-June-04, 15:35
Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 13:36, said:
If a non-American may reply, then I think the point of it (if you have the bids not otherwise utilised) is that if the 5-3 major fit is found, it is better played by the hand that has longer minors to receive the lead.