[dickiegera]

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After 2 passes now what?


This is what happened to us

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[MrAce]

You know my answer from past topics.

4♥ and yes if there is any slam, i will miss it, in return i will more often play the game i want to play, at the level i want, with less interference and less accurate lead/defense.

[wank]

i agree with mrace about 4h.

having not done so, you must bid 3s on the way to help partner over 5d - looking at a void, it shouldn't be a shock to see the opps bidding on.

as for the other hand doubling, it rather depends if 4h estblished a forcing pass, or if it could be more like a pre-empt. if the former i don't like the double - 3 is the wrong number of diamonds because it implies shortage in partner's hand. opposite shortage, you have no objection to partner bidding on, so i prefer a pass. if 4h didn't make a forcing pass, you have to double to show strength, but that gives opener a guess, though one which imo he should get right anyway.

[kenberg]

Despite the result, I open 1♥ with this. What happens next I am less sure of. Maybe I bid 3♠ over 3♦ but probably not. But if not, and maybe even if I do, I think I would pull the double. Partner is doubling on the assumption my 4♥ showed some good values as well as good hearts. He should not have to make allowance for my bidding 4♥ on the basis of my 7-4 holding. He isn't expecting diamond triacks, he is expecting tricks, and my hand produces a lot more tricks in hearts than it does in diamonds. To put it another way, I have a 10 count and partner made a simple raise. We might well not be setting this.

My general approach, if I have opened on shape rather than strength, is to seriously consider pulling partner's first penalty double. If it then goes higher after that, I virtually never pull his second penalty double.

[ggwhiz]

kenberg, on 2014-April-05, 08:18, said:

Despite the result, I open 1♥ with this. What happens next I am less sure of. Maybe I bid 3♠ over 3♦ but probably not. But if not, and maybe even if I do, I think I would pull the double. Partner is doubling on the assumption my 4♥ showed some good values as well as good hearts. He should not have to make allowance for my bidding 4♥ on the basis of my 7-4 holding. He isn't expecting diamond triacks, he is expecting tricks, and my hand produces a lot more tricks in hearts than it does in diamonds. To put it another way, I have a 10 count and partner made a simple raise. We might well not be setting this.

My general approach, if I have opened on shape rather than strength, is to seriously consider pulling partner's first penalty double. If it then goes higher after that, I virtually never pull his second penalty double.

Me too. As a matter of frequency I've been lucky enough often enough for a hand like this to be a misfit instead of a double fit where the opponents come in to their regret or we stop in a plus opposite partners short majors. Naturally there are some fails but an important factor for me is that negotiating the rest of an auction like this is one of the strongest parts of my partners game.

I have no objection to a 4♥ opener except that it takes that club out of partners bag.

[steve2005]

Would open 1♥ we might belong in ♠

I would have made a neg double with east's hand not 2♥ then make a limit raise in ♥

As for west I'm not sitting for a pen X with all those ♥ after east raises

[mcphee]

I prefer to open these hands 1H. Opening 4H you have no clue what to do if 5D comes around to you. Once E raises H it is foolish for a hand with all offense to sit for a penalty dble.

[PhilKing]

mcphee, on 2014-April-05, 09:47, said:

I prefer to open these hands 1H. Opening 4H you have no clue what to do if 5D comes around to you. Once E raises H it is foolish for a hand with all offense to sit for a penalty dble.

I might be being a bit thick, but if I opened 4♥ (which I would) and 5♦ came back to me, I would have thought I had an obvious pass.

[neilkaz]

MrAce, on 2014-April-05, 07:32, said:

You know my answer from past topics.

4♥ and yes if there is any slam, i will miss it, in return i will more often play the game i want to play, at the level i want, with less interference and less accurate lead/defense.

We agree noting that we have a swan and are in 3rd seat with a passed PD and that LHO may hold a moose. Perhaps our 4♥ bid may cause them to miss a slam or to play a bad slam.

[neilkaz]

On the actual bidding I don't like opener's pass of 5Dx as his ODR is off the charts high and PD cannot expect his to have such low defensive strength vs 5Dx. I know that I've lectured countless PD's about pulling my doubles in similar situations but here, opener simple has to pull.

[gszes]

1H

I do not mind interference and I like catering to hands that might
belong in spades rather than hearts. The actual bidding (which would
trigger forcing pass for me) means my p x of 5d can be made on
significantly less overall values and I would have no qualms
pulling to 5h. It is interesting how a simple 2d bid makes us miss
our more flexible 9 card spade fit but that is life.

Opposite a passed hand I have great sympathy for anyone that
prefers to open this hand 4h since it takes such a perfect max
for a passed hand for our side to make a slam. Bidding 4h also
has the benefit of being highly preemptive even if it misses the
right strain on occasion.

1h = 10 4h = 8

[whereagles]

Seems like a typical 3rd seat 3♥ opener...

[the hog]

4H, Burgess' rule.

[the hog]

mcphee, on 2014-April-05, 09:47, said:

I prefer to open these hands 1H. Opening 4H you have no clue what to do if 5D comes around to you. Once E raises H it is foolish for a hand with all offense to sit for a penalty dble.

That's the whole point. 5D is unlikely to come around to you if you open 4H. If it does, then you have an obvious pass.

[starter12]

dickiegera, on 2014-April-05, 07:04, said:

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After 2 passes now what?


This is what happened to us

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4c Mitchell transfer to 4 h or slam ask

[starter12]

And yes I know it bends the Mitchel tx pattern

[MrAce]

the hog, on 2014-April-05, 19:51, said:

4H, Burgess' rule.

What is Burgess rule Ron ?

[the hog]

MrAce, on 2014-April-06, 05:27, said:

What is Burgess rule Ron ?

Stephen Burgess always opined that 7-4 shapes should be opened at the game level. If you are not sure who SB is, he was the better half of the Marston Burgess strong pass/moscito partnership which was amongst the top 5 or so pairs in the world in its heyday. I have played against both players many times and Burgess is an unbelievable card player, also very funny and very rude.

[MrAce]

the hog, on 2014-April-06, 05:37, said:

Stephen Burgess always opined that 7-4 shapes should be opened at the game level. If you are not sure who SB is, he was the better half of the Marston Burgess strong pass/moscito partnership which was amongst the top 5 or so pairs in the world in its heyday. I have played against both players many times and Burgess is an unbelievable card player, also very funny and very rude.

Ok, thanks.

[the hog]

Timo
, here is a thread hijack, but a funny Burgess story. Burgess with a multi mill sponsor playing against me. Erwin puts down a dummy that resembles nothing like what he had shown in the auction. Erwin get your fxxxxxxx ugly face to the bar, order the table a round of drinks and don't come back till I give you permission.