5 level decision
#1
Posted 2014-March-16, 23:25
You hold ♠Qx♥QTxxxx♦A♣AQTx
1♥-(p)-2nt(1)-(5♦)-??
(1) Jacoby 2nt
You play a standard forcing pass style where pass then pull a double is a slam try. What do you do over 5♦?
#2
Posted 2014-March-17, 03:39
Stephen Tu, on 2014-March-16, 23:25, said:
You hold ♠Qx♥QTxxxx♦A♣AQTx
1♥-(p)-2nt(1)-(5♦)-??
(1) Jacoby 2nt
You play a standard forcing pass style where pass then pull a double is a slam try. What do you do over 5♦?
I have some extra offense but not so much as I want to make a serious slam try so I bid 5♥. I think this is already a bid over which partner is encouraged to bid some more.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#3
Posted 2014-March-17, 04:09
Cascade, on 2014-March-17, 03:39, said:
Did you try to place 12+ hcp in in pd's hand without too many diamond points ? It is actually pretty tempting..
Worst scenarios are AKJ spades K of clubs and J of hearts or J of clubs OR J of spades AKJ hearts and K of clubs.
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#4
Posted 2014-March-17, 11:57
and pull over an x by partner to show slam interest.
#5
Posted 2014-March-17, 14:49
#6
Posted 2014-March-17, 16:34
MrAce, on 2014-March-17, 04:09, said:
Worst scenarios are AKJ spades K of clubs and J of hearts or J of clubs OR J of spades AKJ hearts and K of clubs.
Your examples have no points in diamonds not not "too many diamond points".
Give partner the diamond king or queen and suddenly you are a card or half a card short of a decent slam. My partner without any diamond cards has another bid and knows I have something extra without diamond wastage. (Actually I consider the diamond ace some wastage hence I am a little stronger than a might be.) Partner should be able to imagine the stiff diamond and something like what i have or more likely something a little better outside diamonds with a small singleton diamond.
That is I think 5♥ encourages partner to bid on with a good minimum with nothing wasted.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#7
Posted 2014-March-17, 19:10
Cascade, on 2014-March-17, 16:34, said:
Give partner the diamond king or queen and suddenly you are a card or half a card short of a decent slam. My partner without any diamond cards has another bid and knows I have something extra without diamond wastage. (Actually I consider the diamond ace some wastage hence I am a little stronger than a might be.) Partner should be able to imagine the stiff diamond and something like what i have or more likely something a little better outside diamonds with a small singleton diamond.
That is I think 5♥ encourages partner to bid on with a good minimum with nothing wasted.
I was trying to make a point. Your pd will not have ♦ K or Q when someone jumps to 5, white vs white and you hold A in that suit. You can of course wait for that to happen and cater for that day, it is totally your own choice. I won't and this is my choice
Having said that, i am still not sure if i should pass then pull or bid 5 now. As you can see i did not cast a vote and said "it is very tempting" instead of saying "passing then pulling is correct" Because even w/o the ♦ wastage pd can still hold hand types where we can not stop before slam and it won't be a good slam. But the number of hands that makes slam and pd will hard time to bid it, if we bid 5♥ is more imho.
Perhaps, we should ask ourself "how can a hand bid 5♥ in this auction and not be as good as this one" Obviously the bidder believes that we are likely to make it, white vs white. Bidding 5 over 5 when colors are not so attractive, it should show something, and maybe this hand we hold has it.
But if it shows an invitation hand then i am all up for passing and then pulling. And i think it shows exactly that.
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#8
Posted 2014-March-17, 19:47
On the actual hand anything works, partner was bidding slam (good slam, makes, but wasn't cold) unless you double which I didn't really think was an option. Irrelevant though.
#9
Posted 2014-March-17, 20:59
#10
Posted 2014-March-17, 21:06
#11
Posted 2014-March-17, 21:47
My first concern was missing the grand I would always force to 6.
I assumed 2nt showed slam interest not just some random minimum game force.
ZI really don't see how pard will ever play me for this great of a hand is my main worry.
--
I am tempted to bid 5nt if that is gsf as I expect pard to at worst hold perhaps:
AJx..AKxx..xx....Kxxx
and don't know how to get to 7c
#12
Posted 2014-March-17, 23:27
mike777, on 2014-March-17, 21:47, said:
It's strange to play 2nt as immediately showing slam interest. The idea behind 2nt raise is to leave room for opener to show features that make for good slams opposite some minimum GF hands if the cards are well located. If these min GF hands have to do something else like some higher bid (3nt or various swiss raises, etc.), you both lose that higher bid for other purposes, and make it harder to find these slams since you can't find like stiff vs. xxxx situations.
Making forcing passes or bidding 5H shows better offense hands than doubling which is what one does with worse hands to suggest partner not bid on with ordinary hands esp. ones with 2 diamond losers.
#13
Posted 2014-March-17, 23:30
I play in a world where responder is often stronger than opener when gf
You suggest the opposite.
I grew up in a world where Barry Crane bid on crap and Ehaa was considered standard
Where Italy doubled for takeout on every hand it seemed.
---------------
too put this another way this is a problem of what does an opening bid mean at the one level, not a 5 level problem.
For me this hand has extras lots of extras.
if for you this is a nothing opener ....ok.
#14
Posted 2014-March-18, 02:31
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#15
Posted 2014-March-18, 02:45
Trinidad, on 2014-March-18, 02:31, said:
Rik
Seriously, what sort of hand would you bid 5♥ on?
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#16
Posted 2014-March-18, 09:33
mike777, on 2014-March-17, 23:30, said:
I play in a world where responder is often stronger than opener when gf
Why does this matter? Using 2nt to gather more info at a lower level works fine if responder has stronger hands also. The idea is usually that it's easier to evaluate fitting cards when the unbalanced hand describes the shape, with the balanced hand asking rather than showing. There's no tremendous advantage in having responder promise an extra K or whatever. Don't you want to reach slams both when responder has extra values and opener is min and the right shape AND when opener has extra and shape and responder has the right values but minimum?
Quote
For me this hand has extras lots of extras.
if for you this is a nothing opener ....ok.
Again WTF are you talking about? Who said this is a "nothing opener", everyone agrees this has extra offense? Nothing openers DOUBLE, they don't make forcing passes or bid 5h freely. There are degrees of "extra", we are discussing how much extra each of the possible options should show, and where this hand lies among them.
#17
Posted 2014-March-18, 11:22
MrAce, on 2014-March-17, 19:10, said:
This is so obviously fallacious - that partner will not have a top diamond honour. Effectively you are saying that no one ever jumps to 5♦ on a suit headed by KJ or QJ. That is simply not true and one does not have to wait for that long (relatively) to see these suits.
There is another thread at the moment involving the defense to 4♥ and the author later admits that he would never bid 4♥ on the actual hand held by declarer. The point being that there are people out there, including some quite good players, that play styles that are, to others, quite unsound and they will bid on hands that others, including you and perhaps I, would not bid on. Although in this case I wonder what you would bid on with KJ 9th or the like?
Do you really wait around for a solid suit headed by the ace or king to preempt 5minor in their game force auction?
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#18
Posted 2014-March-18, 13:05
Cascade, on 2014-March-18, 02:45, said:
A distributional minimum, or -to put it in an other way- a hand that is slightly too strong to open a weak two or a preempt. These are hands that want to play 5♥, don't want to defend 5♦ at all, and certainly don't want to encourage partner to get higher than 5♥.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#19
Posted 2014-March-18, 13:52
Trinidad, on 2014-March-18, 13:05, said:
Really? How do you know you don't want to defend 5d? These hands might not make 5H, and 5d probably goes down easily when your side has the clear balance of HCP and you have the normal quick trick minimum for opening 1 rather than preempting.
Why not just pass and let partner decide what to do with these sort of hands, instead of possibly turning a plus position into a minus?