[barmar]

 mike777, on 2014-March-02, 01:31, said:

Yes but you need to continue this thought process.....you know programing better than us.

START: THE POOR ARE POOR. You point out a lack of legitimate going into these services...but govt ok?

Yes. One of the things we expect the government to do is solve problems that the market will not, or cannot, solve on its own.

[kenberg]

Michael Gerson, in a recent column, commented "There are very few libertarians after a hurricane". Or something like that. Indeed, while I am more skeptical than some about this plan, I can see that it might work and I'm fine with it if it does.

More generally, I think we as a society really do need to get our heads straight about poverty. That is a more general topic than Winston started with in the OP, but he might not mind.

Suppose I ask myself: Why am I not poor? People often ask why they are not rich, but in many ways why I am not poor is the more interesting question. Here are some reasons:

1. I had help. My adoption at birth and my scholarship to go to college are standout examples, but there are others.

2. My father, with very difficult early years of his own, had very good sense. He was always very careful about money, and this was crucially important during the time he was recovering from his stroke. There was a (small) cushion. This protected us while I was young and set a good example as I grew up.

3. I have some talent.

4. Although I did quite a number of dumb things, some of them brain dead stupid, I was lucky enough to land on my feet. I stayed away from drugs, and I (well, mostly) didn't get into trouble with the law.

5. From as far back as I can recall, I have always had an intense interest in my own well-being and a faith in the future.

Now about other people: The government has a role to play in 1. and, as with me, it can be a big role. Actually the scholarship was from a brewery, but still the tuition at the University of Minnesota was tax supported and very reasonable. As to 3., it is my view that there is a lot of wasted talent out there. Not everyone can create a Google or become particularly rich but I am speaking of avoiding poverty, not of becoming rich. We have had some tree damage from all the snowstorms, it's snowing now, and some trees need to come down. We will be calling Leo, a Hispanic guy who, when we first met him, had his wife with him to translate. It is very unlikely he has been to college (I also have not demanded immigration credentials). Also, we recently had the insulation in our home redone. The guys knew what they were doing and did a fine job. And so on. Leo contracts on his own and, I think, makes a fine living. The insulation guys, I think, do well enough but if not then this could be addressed. A person who learns how to do a job, and then perhaps takes a few courses in basic business needs, especially how to write proposals, contracts, reports, etc, can make a pretty decent living. Not rich, but he can, probably with a two income household, raise his kids and pay his bills.

Now 2., 4., and 5. are harder for the government, or any outside source, to provide. In my opinion, any successful person who thinks that he did it all himself, with no help from anyone and with no good luck at some key spots, needs to develop his observational skills. Bud good judgment is needed also, and a faith in the future. These can be nurtured by a role model, but in some lives these are a bit scarce.


Short version: Assistance is necessary, but by itself it will often not be enough.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2014-March-03, 08:43, said:

Michael Gerson, in a recent column, commented "There are very few libertarians after a hurricane". Or something like that. Indeed, while I am more skeptical than some about this plan, I can see that it might work and I'm fine with it if it does.

More generally, I think we as a society really do need to get our heads straight about poverty. That is a more general topic than Winston started with in the OP, but he might not mind.

Suppose I ask myself: Why am I not poor? People often ask why they are not rich, but in many ways why I am not poor is the more interesting question. Here are some reasons:

1. I had help. My adoption at birth and my scholarship to go to college are standout examples, but there are others.

2. My father, with very difficult early years of his own, had very good sense. He was always very careful about money, and this was crucially important during the time he was recovering from his stroke. There was a (small) cushion. This protected us while I was young and set a good example as I grew up.

3. I have some talent.

4. Although I did quite a number of dumb things, some of them brain dead stupid, I was lucky enough to land on my feet. I stayed away from drugs, and I (well, mostly) didn't get into trouble with the law.

5. From as far back as I can recall, I have always had an intense interest in my own well-being and a faith in the future.

Now about other people: The government has a role to play in 1. and, as with me, it can be a big role. Actually the scholarship was from a brewery, but still the tuition at the University of Minnesota was tax supported and very reasonable. As to 3., it is my view that there is a lot of wasted talent out there. Not everyone can create a Google or become particularly rich but I am speaking of avoiding poverty, not of becoming rich. We have had some tree damage from all the snowstorms, it's snowing now, and some trees need to come down. We will be calling Leo, a Hispanic guy who, when we first met him, had his wife with him to translate. It is very unlikely he has been to college (I also have not demanded immigration credentials). Also, we recently had the insulation in our home redone. The guys knew what they were doing and did a fine job. And so on. Leo contracts on his own and, I think, makes a fine living. The insulation guys, I think, do well enough but if not then this could be addressed. A person who learns how to do a job, and then perhaps takes a few courses in basic business needs, especially how to write proposals, contracts, reports, etc, can make a pretty decent living. Not rich, but he can, probably with a two income household, raise his kids and pay his bills.

Now 2., 4., and 5. are harder for the government, or any outside source, to provide. In my opinion, any successful person who thinks that he did it all himself, with no help from anyone and with no good luck at some key spots, needs to develop his observational skills. Bud good judgment is needed also, and a faith in the future. These can be nurtured by a role model, but in some lives these are a bit scarce.


Short version: Assistance is necessary, but by itself it will often not be enough.

Actually, Ken this is the genuine question: what, if anything, can a society do (and should we do) to aid less fortunates?

I think I understand why I am not wealthy. I agree that the more interesting question is why I am not extremely poor. Yet, at the same time, I am firmly convinced that we can never understand someone else's circumstances without being that person (which is what I think walk a mile in their shoes really means). Between physiological differences and psychological factors and environmental impact, each person has a different response system and unique tolerances. I cringe when I hear someone say that everything is a matter of choices - because to whom you were born, the early childhood experiences that shape psychological makeup, and where you were born are not choices at all and surely comprise the vast majority of response mechanisms within each human - it is only the rare few with totally adequate roots that have the luxury of choice without impediments.

For the most part, I think I am not poor because I was lucky.

[billw55]

 Winstonm, on 2014-March-03, 09:49, said:

I cringe when I hear someone say that everything is a matter of choices - because to whom you were born, the early childhood experiences that shape psychological makeup, and where you were born are not choices at all and surely comprise the vast majority of response mechanisms within each human - it is only the rare few with totally adequate roots that have the luxury of choice without impediments.

And yet, I have personally met people who were born into poverty, grew up in poverty, but worked their way out. How is this possible?

 Winstonm, on 2014-March-03, 09:49, said:

For the most part, I think I am not poor because I was lucky.

I must take your word that luck was a factor. But I suspect that you also worked, got educated, avoided crime, avoided drug addiction ... all choices you made, and work that you did, that contributed heavily to your success. Why do you sell yourself so short by dismissing it all as luck?

And by extension, to assign luck as the primary factor is to also sell short the many poor people who are capable of working out of it. If we send this message, that is just luck of the draw, won't this discourage some of the poor from working to succeed? Again this attitude seems condescending and elitist - you can't really get out, it's just luck, you were born poor and that's that, too bad for you. The subtle discrimination of low expectations is very real and harmful IMO.

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2014-March-03, 09:49, said:

Actually, Ken this is the genuine question: what, if anything, can a society do (and should we do) to aid less fortunates?

I think I understand why I am not wealthy. I agree that the more interesting question is why I am not extremely poor. Yet, at the same time, I am firmly convinced that we can never understand someone else's circumstances without being that person (which is what I think walk a mile in their shoes really means). Between physiological differences and psychological factors and environmental impact, each person has a different response system and unique tolerances. I cringe when I hear someone say that everything is a matter of choices - because to whom you were born, the early childhood experiences that shape psychological makeup, and where you were born are not choices at all and surely comprise the vast majority of response mechanisms within each human - it is only the rare few with totally adequate roots that have the luxury of choice without impediments.

For the most part, I think I am not poor because I was lucky.

Who, name one, has said that everything is a matter of choice? There is a pattern here. Someone (me) mentions choice. You cring and say that some things, a person's genetic make-up for example, are not a matter of choice. Righto. I thank Thor for my genes and i acknowledge my great sin (failure if you prefer) of not always taking the best care of what i have been given. Some people have bodies that, if they were ovens, they would be recalled. I get that. I was reasonably lucky in the genetic lottery. Well, I have some complaints.... Never mind.

Philosophical digression (you can choose not to read this):
Still, we choose. The problem of free will has been around forever, but I guess my view is that if we don't have free will we all might as well then just shut up because it's all determined anyway. I was confirmed as a Presbyterian and as I understand that view, I was on my way to hell the day I was born and there is nothing I can do about it. I prefer to approach my life differently. I do things that I regard as making choices, and I notice that these choices have consequences. If some philosopher king wants to say that everything that I think of as choice was actually pre-ordained to happen, well another pre-ordained event is that i disagree. You can see how it goes: If I have a choice of agreeing with him or not, then I am right to disagree. OTOH, perhaps my disagreement with him is, like everything else, totally determined. Then it is determined that I will disagree with him, I have no choice. Either way, I disagree.


Back on track:
I do not regard myself as a judgmental sort of guy. For me choice is not a source for scolding, it is a source for hope. A bad choice means that in the future he might choose a better way. A fantasy (not really a plan but actually I don't think it is crazy) is to issue every kid a bicycle and to make it a serious crime to steal it. I rode my bike everywhere. You see the world, you see that there are options, you start to think maybe. The kid certainly need not, probably will not, choose the same as I, but he chooses. It is difficult to choose a path that you haven't seen, so make some paths more visible.

i have a friend who thinks as you appear to about choice. He has taken this perfectly good word and pretty much banned it from his vocabulary. I don't get it.

[nige1]

 hrothgar, on 2014-February-14, 08:42, said:

Yesterday, I had the following interaction with my Postal Carrier that was right out of Seinfeld
1. The carrier rings my doorbell and asks him to meet him up front
2. I put on pants and wander to the entrance hall (the joy of working from home on a snowy day)
3. The postal carrier complains that my box is full of mail and that I need to empty it
4. I ask him to show me what needs to be delivered. Upon inspection, it consists of a thick pile of junk mail, unwanted uncatalogued and magazines, and fliers.
5. The postal carrier explains that, be that as it may, my mail box still needs to be empty so he can deliver this
6. I respond that I fail to see that this is my problem and wander back inside.

Now we know why they go postal

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2014-March-03, 12:41, said:

Who, name one, has said that everything is a matter of choice? There is a pattern here. Someone (me) mentions choice. You cring and say that some things, a person's genetic make-up for example, are not a matter of choice. Righto. I thank Thor for my genes and i acknowledge my great sin (failure if you prefer) of not always taking the best care of what i have been given. Some people have bodies that, if they were ovens, they would be recalled. I get that. I was reasonably lucky in the genetic lottery. Well, I have some complaints.... Never mind.

Philosophical digression (you can choose not to read this):
Still, we choose. The problem of free will has been around forever, but I guess my view is that if we don't have free will we all might as well then just shut up because it's all determined anyway. I was confirmed as a Presbyterian and as I understand that view, I was on my way to hell the day I was born and there is nothing I can do about it. I prefer to approach my life differently. I do things that I regard as making choices, and I notice that these choices have consequences. If some philosopher king wants to say that everything that I think of as choice was actually pre-ordained to happen, well another pre-ordained event is that i disagree. You can see how it goes: If I have a choice of agreeing with him or not, then I am right to disagree. OTOH, perhaps my disagreement with him is, like everything else, totally determined. Then it is determined that I will disagree with him, I have no choice. Either way, I disagree.


Back on track:
I do not regard myself as a judgmental sort of guy. For me choice is not a source for scolding, it is a source for hope. A bad choice means that in the future he might choose a better way. A fantasy (not really a plan but actually I don't think it is crazy) is to issue every kid a bicycle and to make it a serious crime to steal it. I rode my bike everywhere. You see the world, you see that there are options, you start to think maybe. The kid certainly need not, probably will not, choose the same as I, but he chooses. It is difficult to choose a path that you haven't seen, so make some paths more visible.

i have a friend who thinks as you appear to about choice. He has taken this perfectly good word and pretty much banned it from his vocabulary. I don't get it.

I've never grasped why it happens so often that a general statement is assumed to be meant as specific.

To clarify, no one on this thread has said everything is a matter of choice. At the same time, I would hope that everyone on this thread can acknowledge that choice is limited by factors outside of one's control, i.e., genes, upbringing, psychology, etc.

A good example of this is tolerance for pain - it varies, therefore the choice of using pain medication is a different kind of choice for each person, depending on pain tolerance. I simply see choice variation as a further example of variation within the species.

So when it is suggested that solutions are simply a matter of choice, I say, hold on, it's not quite that easy.

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2014-March-04, 07:24, said:

To clarify, no one on this thread has said everything is a matter of choice. At the same time, I would hope that everyone on this thread can acknowledge that choice is limited by factors outside of one's control, i.e., genes, upbringing, psychology, etc.

Agreement! Yes, I think many agree.

 Winstonm, on 2014-March-04, 07:24, said:

So when it is suggested that solutions are simply a matter of choice, I say, hold on, it's not quite that easy.

And with this also.

I would say one more thing: Any rational program that intends to help people needs to include some thought about the choices people make and ow we might be able to help them make better choices.

As it happens, Becky just now saw this "human interest' story in the Post. The first woman to get a pilot's license got it on March 8, 1910. The local airport celebrates this every year by taking those of the female persuasion up for a free ride and will be doing so again this Saturday. They quoted a 9 year old from last year: "I don't know what I want to do when I grow up, but right now it's just fun to try things". Go, girl. And they do the same for boys on a different day. As I say, I was not entirely joking about the bike idea. We want kids, especially kids from not so great circumstances, to look around and say "I bet I could do that".

Incidentally, this first woman licensee was in France, but a couple of weeks later a woman flew solo in the States. No license, she just snuck onto the field, fired it up, and took off.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2014-March-04, 08:03, said:

Agreement! Yes, I think many agree.



And with this also.

I would say one more thing: Any rational program that intends to help people needs to include some thought about the choices people make and ow we might be able to help them make better choices.

As it happens, Becky just now saw this "human interest' story in the Post. The first woman to get a pilot's license got it on March 8, 1910. The local airport celebrates this every year by taking those of the female persuasion up for a free ride and will be doing so again this Saturday. They quoted a 9 year old from last year: "I don't know what I want to do when I grow up, but right now it's just fun to try things". Go, girl. And they do the same for boys on a different day. As I say, I was not entirely joking about the bike idea. We want kids, especially kids from not so great circumstances, to look around and say "I bet I could do that".

Incidentally, this first woman licensee was in France, but a couple of weeks later a woman flew solo in the States. No license, she just snuck onto the field, fired it up, and took off.

I think teaching choice-making to the young is a fine idea, especially if the emphasis is on how consequences stem from choices made.

[blackshoe]

 barmar, on 2014-March-02, 23:33, said:

Yes. One of the things we expect the government to do is solve problems that the market will not, or cannot, solve on its own.

The market has never been given the chance to solve anything on its own - there has always been government interference with it.

Ayn Rand was brilliant. She was also wrong about a lot of things.

[blackshoe]

 kenberg, on 2014-March-04, 08:03, said:

ncidentally, this first woman licensee was in France, but a couple of weeks later a woman flew solo in the States. No license, she just snuck onto the field, fired it up, and took off.

The Wright brothers didn't have a license either.

[barmar]

 billw55, on 2014-March-03, 11:04, said:

And yet, I have personally met people who were born into poverty, grew up in poverty, but worked their way out. How is this possible?

It's possible, but difficult, and relatively rare.

Perhaps the best way out is to become a successful rap singer or athlete. But even if you have the necessary talent, you have to be extremely lucky to turn it into a successful career: you have to be noticed by the right agent or recruiter, and make it through all the competition from many others with similar abilities.

[kenberg]

 barmar, on 2014-March-04, 09:54, said:

It's possible, but difficult, and relatively rare.

Perhaps the best way out is to become a successful rap singer or athlete. But even if you have the necessary talent, you have to be extremely lucky to turn it into a successful career: you have to be noticed by the right agent or recruiter, and make it through all the competition from many others with similar abilities.

As I understand it, it is more rare, perhaps a lot more rare, than it once was. I would like to see a very open-minded discussion of just why. I mentioned that Becky and I did some tutoring in basic reading skills. The guy that I was working with was part black, part Indian, and grew up on a reservation. He is maybe ten years or so younger than I am, making him a child at the time of Brown versus the Board of Education. In the South, where he was, the practical consequence for him was he went from a segregated to school to no school, or at least to not much of any school. We started the tutoring by learning the sounds associated with letters. In today's terms we started at the pre-K level. dumb he was not, definitely. The tribe had done construction work, he learned it well. Living on his own, he organized crews and contracted to do work. Many of his crew were latino, so he learned enough Spanish to do what had to be done. He developed physical problems and dropped out of the tutoring, but until then he was coming along fine.

My father's early life was horrific. I can't say all that much because when I asked him for some details he said it was hell and refused to discuss it further.

These guys did not become professional athletes. Never saw an income even vaguely of that sort. But they made a living. I went to college, my tutoree's son had gone to college and was making a good living. The guy Becky was tutoring had two or three daughters who all went to college and he had done some foster care as well. Not for the money, he made a decent living, he did it because he thought it worthwhile. He wanted to learn to read well enough so that he could read in Sunday Church services.

These stories do indeed seem to be rarer now than they used to be. And it's truly an American tragedy. Giving "them" food stamps is a very poor substitute for giving them a life that they can be proud of.

[PassedOut]

My grandfather on my father's side was orphaned at an early age along with two sisters. His father owned a farm in Wisconsin and had made a provision for that possibility in his will after his wife died in childbirth: His younger brother would inherit the farm on the condition that he first raised the children. The younger brother did so and did not marry and start his own family until he had raised his older brother's children. My grandfather wondered -- as do I -- what would have become of him without the family support. And it's often the case that people face situations without reliable family support.

Fast forward to my grandfather as a young man with four children, the youngest just 18 months old. His wife died of peritonitis from an infection that had no treatment at the time. (My dad, who was three years old, had only one memory of his mother: She was in bed before they took her to the hospital, and she looked at him for awhile with a loving smile, then took him in her arms for a gentle hug.) After his wife's death, her family took on the unexpected task of raising four extra children -- for five years -- while my grandfather worked very hard to provide for his kids and to share his income with the family caring for his kids. After five years he remarried and was able to bring them back home. Our extended families are very close to this day, and we still have reunions at the farm that belonged to my grandfather's dad.

So my dad, too, often wondered what would have happened to him without the family support.

My grandfather turned out to be financially successful, mostly by following a strategy of buying blue-chip stocks and never selling, even during the great depression. So he had the benefit of good fortune, but also made choices that turned out well for him (and us).

From a child's perspective, it is sheer chance whether or not he or she has good family support. I believe that society needs to remove some of the randomness that prevents many kids from developing to the point where they even know what it is to make a responsible choice.

[y66]

 Winstonm, on 2014-March-03, 09:49, said:

Actually, Ken this is the genuine question: what, if anything, can a society do (and should we do) to aid less fortunates?

Adopt the Nordic model of capitalism and welfare:

Quote

The Nordic model has been successful at significantly ameliorating poverty. Poverty rates pre-tax/transfer are 24.4% in Denmark, 32.3% in Finland, 21% in Iceland, 25.7% in Norway, and 27.8% in Sweden, and post-tax/transfer poverty rates become 6%, 7.3%, 6.4%, 7.5%, and 9.1% respectively

[barmar]

 y66, on 2014-March-05, 09:10, said:

Adopt the Nordic model of capitalism and welfare:

Sounds really nice. As usual, the problem is how to get from here to there. Considering how difficult it's been just getting Obamacare going, increasing the level of welfare to Nordic levels seems like an impossible hurdle.

[PassedOut]

 y66, on 2014-March-05, 09:10, said:

Adopt the Nordic model of capitalism and welfare.

Eventually (not in my lifetime I'm sure) society will progress to the point that working for an employer is not a requirement for obtaining the necessities of life. The ratio of jobs available to job seekers is moving in the wrong direction now, and with increasing productivity that will continue. Over time, the "safety net" will have to give way to the "guaranteed wage" or something like that.

When it does, it will be a boon to business as well as to those who are now forced to work low-paying jobs.

[kenberg]

According to
http://en.wikipedia....by_poverty_rate
the poverty rate in Minnesota, which has a substantial Nordic population, is 8.1%. Not so different.

We could just do what Minnesota does, no need to travel to Norway.

[billw55]

 barmar, on 2014-March-04, 09:54, said:

Perhaps the best way out is to become a successful rap singer or athlete.

I do hope you are being sarcastic.

[barmar]

 billw55, on 2014-March-06, 06:58, said:

I do hope you are being sarcastic.

No, I wasn't. If you were an African-American living in an inner city, going to a school with poor teachers and limited technology, and navigating a neighborhood governed by street gangs, how many opportunities for escape from that life do you think you'd have?