[PhilKing]

When North bid 3NT, it should have been obvious to South that he had J9xx or JTxx. South could just bid 6♦ there and then.

Quite a lot of the answers focus on how North or South could have bid differently on the early rounds, but the auction up until 3NT worked pretty well. Personally, I play that in ABACD auctions, D shows shows an anti-positional holding such as Axx, so I agree with 3NT, but that is neither here nor there. Nor does it matter that I disagree with 1♠ and agree with 2♥. All the actions thus far were reasonably descriptive - South simply dropped the ball over 3NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2013-December-23, 17:50, said:

H-H-D, IMO, is fine for North. H-D-H is ok without more strength, but I wouldn't do it with a JXXX suit.

H-H-D ( 6-6-4 ) shows a weaker hand than H-D-H ( 6-4-6 ).

1H - 2C! ( 2/1 GF )
2H - 3D
4D! - ?? [ But will North really bid 4D instead of 3NT ? or 3S asking for ( another ) stop ]
....... 4H ( 1st step = negative slam aspirations ; Zelandakh treatment )
....... 4S ( 2nd step = 0/3 )
....... 4NT ( = 1/4 )
....... 5C ( = 2 - ♦Q )
....... 5D ( = 2 + ♦Q )
After:
....... 4S
4NT ( next step = ♦Q-ask )
....... 5C ( ♦Q + ♣K )
6D

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-December-24, 08:57, said:

H-H-D ( 6-6-4 ) shows a weaker hand than H-D-H ( 6-4-6 ).

Another discussion we have had on these fora previously, and another case of differing style, not of "what is".

We believed for a very long time as you do about H-H-D vs H-D-H...that using the second case to show more strength was the best approach. We have been de-convinced by BBFr's to a compromise position where we use 6-4-6 unless (as in this case) the lower suit is very weak.

The auction you provided in the above post would get it done for you if (and only if) Opener believes Responder's 2nd-round 3D bid is real rather than a probe, and if with some other opening bid Pard is not fooled into thinking you have longer Clubs with extreme spade shortness.

When (on some other opening hand) rot sets in and Partner asks, "Where is the hand you held during the auction?" You might consider that initial 1S response might have been better.

We still believe the real problem was North's failure to ever introduce the Diamond suit, not the choice of black suit response initially. We also believe that the Flannery adherents and the "2C G.F. balanced or natural" folks will weigh in heavily for 2C instead of 1S, skewing the alleged consensus about the choice of initial response.

[Endymion77]

aguahombre, on 2013-December-24, 11:30, said:

Another discussion we have had on these fora previously, and another case of differing style, not of "what is".

It's not a matter of style. H-H-D lets responder take preference without raising the level, which he can't do after H-D-H. So it makes sense to bid H-H-D with the weaker hands and H-D-H with the stronger hands, just like reverses show extra strength.

[aguahombre]

Endymion77, on 2013-December-24, 11:38, said:

It's not a matter of style. H-H-D lets responder take preference without raising the level, which he can't do after H-D-H. So it makes sense to bid H-H-D with the weaker hands and H-D-H with the stronger hands, just like reverses show extra strength.

Yep, that was our previous take on it. Now, we pretty much have listened to the idea about showing 9+ cards of our hand rather than just 6. I hope that doesn't mean we don't have style I consider it flexibility in our old age.

[ArtK78]

I would think that South intends to bid all three of his suits, as he has slam invitational values opposite any opening bid that North might have.

As for North, it would never occur to me to rebid Jxxx of diamonds rather than AQxxxx of hearts.

So, my auction would start:

1♥ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♦ (intending to bid 4♣ over any 3 level call)

North is endplayed into raising diamonds as he cannot stop clubs, and getting to slam should be easy. Stopping short of 7 is the only issue. The bidding should stop at 6 as neither North nor South will be able to count 13 tricks with any degree of certainty (and for good reason).

[the hog]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-December-24, 08:57, said:

H-H-D ( 6-6-4 ) shows a weaker hand than H-D-H ( 6-4-6 ).

1H - 2C! ( 2/1 GF )
2H - 3D
4D! - ?? [ But will North really bid 4D instead of 3NT ? or 3S asking for ( another ) stop ]
....... 4H ( 1st step = negative slam aspirations ; Zelandakh treatment )
....... 4S ( 2nd step = 0/3 )
....... 4NT ( = 1/4 )
....... 5C ( = 2 - ♦Q )
....... 5D ( = 2 + ♦Q )
After:
....... 4S
4NT ( next step = ♦Q-ask )
....... 5C ( ♦Q + ♣K )
6D

Well there you have it. North bids 2H and Sth bids C followed by Ds showing in most people's eyes and unbalanced hand with long Cs and 4Ds. Pray tell, Don, how would you bid a 2146 shape? The same way as your 4144? Now what about if Nth held a 45xx hand? How would you bid that? Please don't say that you would bid 2S over 2C with minimum opening value as that is not acceptable to many who like the reverse to show extra values. Perhaps you should play Flannery?
I note with interest that not one of the 2C bidders has addressed this point. Perhaps you should all convert to 2C being a gf relay in the Bocchi-Duboin style. Now that I would agree with.

[the hog]

MrAce, on 2013-December-24, 04:37, said:

Good one !

Did I hear the lapdog breaking wind?

[Trinidad]

the hog, on 2013-December-24, 19:52, said:

Did I hear the lapdog breaking wind?

Hog, please grow up.

Sometimes you have something sensible to add to bridge discussions. (As an example: I also would have responded 1♠.) But the way you word your contributions could be improved.

You use words like "cannot bid properly", but feel insulted when someone else writes "experienced players have learned over the years". And as soon as you feel insulted, you start posting things like the above.

Please read what you wrote before posting and think whether you want to be as rude as you are.
There are two sure ways to maximize the risk of getting insulted by others:
- insult others
- feel insulted by everything others write

You are combining these two.

Rik

P.S. Though I do agree with you bidding 1♠, I also have learned over the years that it may create problems. However, that does not mean that I will stop bidding 1♠ with these hands, since I think that not bidding 1♠ creates larger problems.

[Lurpoa]

MrAce, on 2013-December-24, 04:37, said:

Good one !

Yes, I like; ♥

[steve2005]

awm, on 2013-December-23, 14:40, said:

With five spades I respond 1♠ (exception for 5♠-6m). With four spades and a game-force I tend to respond 2m, although there are exceptions if the spades are really strong and the minor really weak, or if I don't have a four-card minor.

come on with 4-1-4-4 you have to always bid spades you can always bid minor later jumping if needed to force.
same with a more common 4-2-3-4, bidding a minor then spades is 5m4♠ or better

[steve2005]

ArtK78, on 2013-December-24, 13:32, said:

I would think that South intends to bid all three of his suits, as he has slam invitational values opposite any opening bid that North might have.

As for North, it would never occur to me to rebid Jxxx of diamonds rather than AQxxxx of hearts.

So, my auction would start:

1♥ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♦ (intending to bid 4♣ over any 3 level call)

North is endplayed into raising diamonds as he cannot stop clubs, and getting to slam should be easy. Stopping short of 7 is the only issue. The bidding should stop at 6 as neither North nor South will be able to count 13 tricks with any degree of certainty (and for good reason).

I agree with bidding suits in this order. trouble with bidding clubs is opener's ♦ suit will be so ratty wont want to bid it and you know this.
this sequence is why I voted other.

[aguahombre]

steve2005, on 2013-December-25, 15:38, said:

I agree with bidding suits in this order. trouble with bidding clubs is opener's ♦ suit will be so ratty wont want to bid it and you know this.
this sequence is why I voted other.

This doesn't compute. Opener's diamond suit will be so ratty, he will want to bid it rather than bid 3NT with no stopper. Responder, in bidding 3C, doesn't even care if 3D is a ratty 4-bagger or a hedge with nowhere to go ...2-6-(32). She will bid 4D anyway.

[the hog]

Trinidad, on 2013-December-25, 02:54, said:

Hog, please grow up.

Sometimes you have something sensible to add to bridge discussions. (As an example: I also would have responded 1♠.) But the way you word your contributions could be improved.

You use words like "cannot bid properly", but feel insulted when someone else writes "experienced players have learned over the years". And as soon as you feel insulted, you start posting things like the above.

Please read what you wrote before posting and think whether you want to be as rude as you are.
There are two sure ways to maximize the risk of getting insulted by others:
- insult others
- feel insulted by everything others write

You are combining these two.

Rik

When you get a highly intelligent post just stating "good one" and adding nothing to any discussion, the poster deserves all he gets.

P.S. Though I do agree with you bidding 1♠, I also have learned over the years that it may create problems. However, that does not mean that I will stop bidding 1♠ with these hands, since I think that not bidding 1♠ creates larger problems.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

the hog, on 2013-December-24, 18:57, said:

Please don't say that you would bid 2S over 2C with minimum opening value as that is not acceptable to many who like the reverse to show extra values. Perhaps you should play Flannery?

I've posted my "home grown" system before.
A direct 2S over 2C! would show extras ( w/ 4 cards ♠ )...
Or a direct 2NT ( over 2C! ) would show extras ( w/o 4 cards ♠ )
whereas:
1H - 2C!
2H! ( minimum w/ or w/o 4 cards ♠)
..... - 2S! ( asks which ? )
??
.. 2NT = minimum w/o ♠
The next 5 replies would show a Flannery type hand:
..2NT = no 4s
.. 3C = 4s/5h, stiff ♣
.. 3D = 4s/5h, stiff ♦
.. 3H = 4s/6+h, stiff or void somewhere
.. 3S = 4 5 2 2
.. 3NT = 4 5 2 2 with honors in both minors

[PhilKing]

steve2005, on 2013-December-25, 15:28, said:

come on with 4-1-4-4 you have to always bid spades you can always bid minor later jumping if needed to force.
same with a more common 4-2-3-4, bidding a minor then spades is 5m4♠ or better

You are referring to an imaginary problem. I would respond 2♣, but it does not follow that I or other Two Clubbers intend to follow up by bidding spades next (or that spades are in danger of being lost).

[MrAce]

the hog, on 2013-December-24, 19:52, said:

Did I hear the lapdog breaking wind?

Merry Christmas to you too hog

Cheers!

[nige1]

humilities, on 2013-December-23, 13:26, said:

Playing 2/1 as South... the only good slam is the one suit we did not bid. It's a given on this acution that North's Diamonds are at least Jxxx, right? If South had bid 4♦ over 3NT would your partnership be 100% that this was natural and slamming in Diamonds? Will partner look at Jxxx and know that's what I am meaning - in his mind he could just as easily have QJx? I didn't feel 4D was clear... we do play kickback though we have not discussed 4♦ on this particular auction - it doesn't make sense as kickback. 4D would have surely been RKC over any 4C bid... How would you get there?

---

Did 4N make? Anyway, good question Humilities. Interesting and informative replies Mr Ace tried to foster the Christmas spirit HAPPY CHRISTMAS FWIW, IMO:

• After 1♥ - ??: 1♠ = 10, 2♣ = 9. Mainly because I didn't think of the latter.
• After 1♥ - 1♠ - ??: 2♦= 10, 2♥ = 9. Matter of style.
• After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - ??: 3♣ = 10, 3♦ = 8. Again, the latter didn't occur to me.
• After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♣ - ??: 3N = 10, 3♦ = 7. The latter should show worse ♠ and better ♦.
• After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♣ - 3N - ??: 6♦ (PhilKing) = 11, 4♦ = 10, 4N = 6. But no votes for 4♦, perhaps because of objections to the earlier auction.

[Lurpoa]

Merry Christmas to you all

Be the♥ with you all.

[steve2005]

nige1, on 2013-December-26, 12:40, said:

After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♣ - ??: 3N = 10, 3♦ = 7. The latter should show worse ♠ and better ♦.

I think some people will bid 3♥ not considering Jxxx♦ a good enough stopper for 3N.
& 6♦ will still be good without J♦ just xxxx