[Poky]

South 100%.

4♥ leads nowhere. This hand is an auto RKCB.

A minimal North didn't know what was going on so he opted for a careful pass (not that a raise would have been an error).

[mikeh]

Poky, on 2013-September-13, 16:27, said:

South 100%.

4♥ leads nowhere. This hand is an auto RKCB.

A minimal North didn't know what was going on so he opted for a careful pass (not that a raise would have been an error).

Another vote for the completely useless keycard. Does any of these keycarders ever ask why they use keycard?

I gave two example hands for partner, both containing a keycard and both having a better spade suit than the OP. One made slam very good and the other made it hopeless. Neither appeared at all inconsistent with the bidding, especially if you accept that 2♠ was an acceptable call on the actual hand.

None of the keycard voters have addressed this issue at all.

I think Frances had it right: if, as S, you feel that you should be in slam opposite a signoff in 4♠, bid it. Keycard is just silly. If you think it worth an invite, then make the invite...I think Frances is correct, again, in arguing that 5♠ should show the side Aces. This wasn't part of the OP, but if one accepts that 4♥ shows spades, then the failure to cue bid means that whatever we are missing, it isn't a cuebiddable Ace. As for 4♥ showing spades, we didn't need to cuebid to show a one round force...any non-game call we made was forcing one round over 3♥, so to me 4♥ unequivocally showed spades or the ability to handle any action partner might take thinking we had spades.

[cherdano]

I don't even agree that 4N is keycard. With a balanced 18 count, we don't have a bid if 4N is keycard. If we want to bid keycard, we can just bid 4♥: it will be rare that partner doesn't bid 4♠, doesn't keycard himself, and we won't be able to guess confidently in the auction starting with his 5-level cuebid.

[Fluffy]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-September-13, 15:36, said:

I was never thinking of the grand on this auction.
If North shows the missing key card, I'll just bid 6S .
If North doesn't have it, I'm signing off in 5S .

♠A has nothing to do with this hand, can you create any partner's hand where he has singleton low heart where slam is not cold? I would find it very difficult, in fact the only chance for that is to lose ♠Q and another card, so missing ♠A you will most likely be totally cold, like ♠QJxxx ♥x ♦KJxx ♣Kxx

[MrAce]

I will skip the reply to 4 NT key carders...I am sure at some point Phil will tell them that they are in wrong forum

It is tuff hand i agree, i would have bid slam (unless i am resulting, which may as well be the case, i admit) with N hand. He already showed no interest over 4♥, now he has extra trump and shape (6-4) and i don't see why he should believe S has shortage in hearts, so i think his Kx ♥ is not as bad as people think it is.

I can not find anything wrong with South bidding, holding an 18 hcp balanced. He did not have any reason to believe his pd was short in hearts that would make Axx hearts very valuable, pd would probably bid slam with good spades and stiff heart over our 2nd attempt. Those who blames south must have more expectations from a 2♠ response than i do.

[wank]

ok i was south. i thought i must be showing something like i had: lots of aces, but a paucity of (quick) tricks, such that i just needed a little extra playing strength from p.

north is a pretty well known player who didn't approve of my bidding, thinking i had a slam drive.

fwiw, my view is norths are undervaluing their hand:-

1) kx of hearts is a positive feature - it sounds like p has the ace and at least 1 more (the opps have stopped in 3 at favourable vul). compare the value of the k♥ to the k♦ on the actual hand (edit: ok the diamond king is good if north also has the jack). even more acutely, imagine the value of the k♥ as opposed to the k♦ if north has Aqxxxx xx Kxx xx.

2) the 6th trump is obviously an extra trick.

3) the extra shape in the minors is better than people might expect. you're expecting at least 1 long diamond to ruff in partner's hand (though yes that might counterfeit a discard if p has AK of clubs). you do have the 2nd round control of clubs. if partner is ace rich, that's very possibly a good holding.

as for anyone thinking i could envisage a heart singleton in p's hand, perhaps i'm more used to the level of opps' aggression they demonstrated here - not only did p have a 2nd heart, it was the king.

[gnasher]

Maybe 4♥ and then 5♥ shows ♥A? If you had a heart void, you could have bid 5♥ straight away.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-September-13, 10:09, said:

If you think the South hand is a slam drive, I don't see the point of keycard; just bid 6S. You can't have grand on opposite a sign-off.
If you don't think the South hand is a slam drive, I don't see the point of keycard because it won't tell you anything useful.

FWIW I think the blame, if any, is with North. 5S must show all the side aces and North has a 6th spade and some extra shape.

Maybe my keycard-ask is all wet, but I would think Responder needs another outside K to accept the 5S-ask .
( Shortness in partners opening suit seems a put-off too ) .

[FrancesHinden]

I gave the North hand and the given auction to Jallerton, and he bid slam, saying that 5S must show all the side aces (or possibly a singleton heart and the other key cards) and his singleton club was a very good card. He constructed KQxx Ax Ax Axxxx and similar hands for this auction.

So there is one opinion unbiased by the actual hands.

Personally I don't like driving slam on the South cards, although it does have something going for it, but I don't see why partner can't have AQxxxx xx Kxx xx or AQJxx xx xx Kxxx or any of a number of hands.

[ArtK78]

Perhaps everyone is misunderstanding my support of using keycard here. I will explain.

I intend to bid slam under all circumstances. I am merely going to inform my partner that we have all of the keycards (if we do) so that, if he does have some sort of surprise, we can reach a grand.

Yes, it is unlikely that we have a grand in light of partner's 4♠ bid. But I am willing to trust his judgment and I am not worried about his bidding a grand when it is not there.