[Stephen Tu]

Standard 5cM system, no special gadgetry to cater to "Bridge World death hand":
Uncontested,
1♥-1♠-3♥-3♠:

- Should 3 spades show only 5 spades? What's the minimum suit quality?
- Should opener raising to 4 spades guarantee 3 cds? What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx? What should opener's 4m mean?

[aguahombre]

Even with our not-exactly-standard 5cM system, 3S is forcing and doesn't necessarily show 6 of them. Partner will expect 3 for a raise, but I might have only two in a pinch.

With your KX AKTXXX XX AQX, I think we are endplayed into bidding 4C rather than 3NT and letting whatever happens happen. She will still think I have 3 Spades, but oh well.

[gnasher]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx?

Personally I'd have rebid 2NT.

[aguahombre]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

Standard 5cM system, no special gadgetry.... What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx?

gnasher, on 2013-September-01, 12:50, said:

Personally I'd have rebid 2NT.

Is that some special gadgetry Stephen doesn't have which shows a semi-balanced 16 count with 6H?

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on 2013-September-01, 14:51, said:

Is that some special gadgetry Stephen doesn't have which shows a semi-balanced 16 count with 6H?

No, it's an everyday gadget that he does have, which shows 18-19 balanced. I just think that's a better description than calling it a one-suiter in hearts.

[SteveMoe]

Seems an old-style approach gets this hand across well:
1♥-1♠
2♣-Any
3♥
(4♥ if Any=♥)
and leaves room for investigating Majors or NT.

[PhilG007]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

Standard 5cM system, no special gadgetry to cater to "Bridge World death hand":
Uncontested,
1♥-1♠-3♥-3♠:

- Should 3 spades show only 5 spades? What's the minimum suit quality?
- Should opener raising to 4 spades guarantee 3 cds? What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx? What should opener's 4m mean?

I would pass 3♠ What started out as a discussion is rapidly turning into an argument and a tug of war.
The bidding clearly shows a misfit...and one partner should give way and the sooner the better. Misfits should be played at as low a level as possible.

[rhm]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx?

Personally I'd have rebid 2♣.
As the bidding went I bid 4♠ since 3♠ is forcing.
3♠ might be a good 5 card suit, e.g ♠AQxxx or (at least) ♠QJTxx

Rainer Herrmann

[sfi]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

- Should opener raising to 4 spades guarantee 3 cds? What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx? What should opener's 4m mean?

These questions seem to have gotten lost.

There's no room to guarantee three card support when raising to 4. If partner has an indifferent 5 card suit I would expect them to find another bid than 3S, so it should be playable opposite a raise (which would be my choice in the sample hand).

4m should be a cue bid, since we have not shown interest in a minor before now. Give me a third spade and 4C looks clear. If my partner bid 4C on the actual hand I wouldn't be upset.

[Stephen Tu]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-02, 01:01, said:

I would pass 3♠ What started out as a discussion is rapidly turning into an argument and a tug of war.
The bidding clearly shows a misfit...and one partner should give way and the sooner the better. Misfits should be played at as low a level as possible.

Uh ... that's just totally wrong. It's universal that 3s is forcing. With a weak misfit, responder just passes. Or responder could have made a weak jump shift to spades earlier if that was available.

Also, although there maybe isn't 6-2 heart fit that often here, 5-3/6-3/6-2 spade fit is certainly still possible. Opener is allowed to rebid 3H on constructions like AQx AKJTxx JTx x.
Getting to the right game or slam consistently is essential. It's more important to cater to these high scoring contracts, than to cater to an extremely narrow slice of hands that take exactly 9 tricks in spades, but fail to do so in hearts.

I guess the main thing I want to know is whether 4s should guarantee 3, or if doubleton honor is enough. The hand that got me thinking about this was a 3631 vs. 5143, 6 spades is the best slam by far (since can establish hearts by ruffing), but it's rather dodgy to bid it if opener is going to raise 4s on some 26?? constructions. Do people like to rebid 2m on 3cd minor a lot, (or 2nt as gnasher, though I can see that sometimes leading to a silly 3nt opposite Jx hearts with opps cashing diamonds), so that 4s is always 3, and the hearts are always good enough to bid a third time if not having 3 cd support? Or maybe 4m should show genuine 3 cd spade support, with 4S being less, or no control in minor?

[rhm]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-02, 02:43, said:

Uh ... that's just totally wrong. It's universal that 3s is forcing. With a weak misfit, responder just passes. Or responder could have made a weak jump shift to spades earlier if that was available.

Also, although there maybe isn't 6-2 heart fit that often here, 5-3/6-3/6-2 spade fit is certainly still possible. Opener is allowed to rebid 3H on constructions like AQx AKJTxx JTx x.
Getting to the right game or slam consistently is essential. It's more important to cater to these high scoring contracts, than to cater to an extremely narrow slice of hands that take exactly 9 tricks in spades, but fail to do so in hearts.

I guess the main thing I want to know is whether 4s should guarantee 3, or if doubleton honor is enough. The hand that got me thinking about this was a 3631 vs. 5143, 6 spades is the best slam by far (since can establish hearts by ruffing), but it's rather dodgy to bid it if opener is going to raise 4s on some 26?? constructions. Do people like to rebid 2m on 3cd minor a lot, (or 2nt as gnasher, though I can see that sometimes leading to a silly 3nt opposite Jx hearts with opps cashing diamonds), so that 4s is always 3, and the hearts are always good enough to bid a third time if not having 3 cd support? Or maybe 4m should show genuine 3 cd spade support, with 4S being less, or no control in minor?

A matter of philosophy

For me starting with control bids is a slam suitable hand in context.
2♠=6♥=2♦=3♣ would require additional extras, not yet shown.
Change a small diamond to a small spade on the above hand (Kxx AKT9xx x AQx) and I would control bid.

Rainer Herrmann

[Vampyr]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx?

rhm, on 2013-September-02, 02:12, said:

Personally I'd have rebid 2♣.

A little disappointing when 2♣ gets the dummy.

[RSClyde]

Vampyr, on 2013-September-19, 06:44, said:

A little disappointing when 2♣ gets the dummy.

I guess that depends on what it consists of.

[mikeh]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-02, 01:01, said:

I would pass 3♠ What started out as a discussion is rapidly turning into an argument and a tug of war.
The bidding clearly shows a misfit...and one partner should give way and the sooner the better. Misfits should be played at as low a level as possible.

To the contrary: the bidding has established a game force and the partnership is engaged in an exploration of both level and strain.

3♥ wasn't, of course, the game force nor even a one round force. It did describe at least 6 hearts, usually a good suit, and ostensibly a great 15 to a bad 18 or so, with no side 4 card suit.

3♠ announced sufficient strength to go to game, usually denies heart support (altho with lots of extras, there might be some hands on which responder felt that bidding 3♠ was an easier way forward towards some high contract than was any direct or inferential heart raise), and promises some spade length...the OP question wasn't about whether 3♠ was forcing, since all bridge players beyond beginner stage know that it is....the OP wanted views/consensus on whether responder could have as few as 5 or had to have at least 6.

My own view is that responder can have 5: indeed, he may well be endplayed in the auction otherwise.

I would, for example, take 4m by responder as inferentially agreeing hearts. Responder has to have heart raises other than bidding the suit, since 4♥ is 'to play', and opener cannot bid over that, and 5 or 6 level raises are crude instruments that may lead to very poor results. Of course, many weak players think that the alternative is keycard

So for me, 3♠, being the cheapest forcing call available, has to carry the load on difficult hands. I would not expect opener to raise on a doubleton, but there may be hands on which that is the best bid.

I don't, btw, agree with Andy that 2N on his example hand is a superior alternative to 3♥. 2N misstates two aspects of the hand, and seems to me to be a needless distortion. I could have said it misstates 3 aspects, because bean-counters would argue that his hand was too weak in hcp for 2N, but my real concerns are the unstopped short minor and the undisclosed 6th heart. I seem to recall that Fred has a method for allowing responder to check back for that 6th card, and in that context I would be far more comfortable with 2N.

[Vampyr]

mikeh, on 2013-September-19, 09:45, said:

I seem to recall that Fred has a method for allowing responder to check back for that 6th card, and in that context I would be far more comfortable with 2N.

Wouldn't common-or-garden checkback put the 6th heart into the picture? I suppose that many here will find this treatment rather quaint, but I know loads of people who play it. I play it myself.

[mikeh]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-02, 01:01, said:

I would pass 3♠ What started out as a discussion is rapidly turning into an argument and a tug of war.
The bidding clearly shows a misfit...and one partner should give way and the sooner the better. Misfits should be played at as low a level as possible.

Phil

It may seem to you that I and others critical of your posts are ganging up on you.

You clearly love the game and seem to be enthusiastic about having the chance to participate in these forums.

I doubt that anyone here wants to discourage you from participating. On the other hand, it is apparent to most of us, if not to you, that your knowledge of the game is nowhere nearly as good as you think it is. It may be that you are a 'good' player in the circles in which you play, but this forum attracts a wide range of players, and some of them (including me) play in circles far above your apparent skill level.

Ignorance is not a crime or a character flaw. Ignorance is merely a lack of knowledge and it has an easy cure: study and learn.

You appear to be ignorant of how bridge is played at the level of expert: I'd say that some of your posts, including this one, suggest you are ignorant of the way the game is played at the intermediate level.

So what? If my take on this is accurate, then this is a great place for you to frequent because you can benefit from the comments and explanations of players far more knowledgeable than you, and thus your ignorance will be cured and you may become as skilled as you seem to think you are already.

Speaking for myself, many years ago I was (I thought) the best player in my part of the country (admittedly a small town 500 miles away from any major city). I then moved to a bigger city and got to play with a couple of real experts: it was only then that I realized how little I knew. I only wish the internet had been around then: I might have learned how to really play

Take advantage of the learning opportunities here. Newbies often don't realize their relative status early on: a number of initially overly aggressive posters have gone on to become respected, valued contributors and I hope you do as well.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-02, 01:01, said:

I would pass 3♠ What started out as a discussion is rapidly turning into an argument and a tug of war.
The bidding clearly shows a misfit...and one partner should give way and the sooner the better. Misfits should be played at as low a level as possible.

Expect partner never to play with you again if you do, partner doesn't fight on a bad hand with spades unless he's prepared to bid 4♠, this is 100% forcing.

Partner can have many things, but a GF, at least 5 spades and less than 3 hearts unless slammish will be common to them, he may want to pass 3N if you can bid it, he may want to see if you have spade support, it may be an advance cue for hearts.

[PhilG007]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-01, 10:20, said:

Standard 5cM system, no special gadgetry to cater to "Bridge World death hand":
Uncontested,
1♥-1♠-3♥-3♠:

- Should 3 spades show only 5 spades? What's the minimum suit quality?
- Should opener raising to 4 spades guarantee 3 cds? What should opener do with something like Kx AKT9xx xx AQx? What should opener's 4m mean?

The question was after 1♥1♠3♥3♠ What does it show?
Answer- it shows a big misfit and an argument developing. The bidding has all the
classic signs of a tug o war. Someone has to give way...and the sooner this happens,the better.

[mikeh]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-20, 07:37, said:

The question was after 1♥1♠3♥3♠ What does it show?
Answer- it shows a big misfit and an argument developing. The bidding has all the
classic signs of a tug o war. Someone has to give way...and the sooner this happens,the better.

Being wrong because one is uninformed (ignorant) is forgiveable: we are all ignorant in many aspects of human knowlwdge. Remaining wedded to one's ignorance after being told, by experts in the area, of the true situation is wilful stupidity.

[PhilG007]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-September-02, 02:43, said:

Uh ... that's just totally wrong. It's universal that 3s is forcing. With a weak misfit, responder just passes. Or responder could have made a weak jump shift to spades earlier if that was available.

Also, although there maybe isn't 6-2 heart fit that often here, 5-3/6-3/6-2 spade fit is certainly still possible. Opener is allowed to rebid 3H on constructions like AQx AKJTxx JTx x.
Getting to the right game or slam consistently is essential. It's more important to cater to these high scoring contracts, than to cater to an extremely narrow slice of hands that take exactly 9 tricks in spades, but fail to do so in hearts.

I guess the main thing I want to know is whether 4s should guarantee 3, or if doubleton honor is enough. The hand that got me thinking about this was a 3631 vs. 5143, 6 spades is the best slam by far (since can establish hearts by ruffing), but it's rather dodgy to bid it if opener is going to raise 4s on some 26?? constructions. Do people like to rebid 2m on 3cd minor a lot, (or 2nt as gnasher, though I can see that sometimes leading to a silly 3nt opposite Jx hearts with opps cashing diamonds), so that 4s is always 3, and the hearts are always good enough to bid a third time if not having 3 cd support? Or maybe 4m should show genuine 3 cd spade support, with 4S being less, or no control in minor?

Sorry but that is just total inanity. Look at these two hands:-

♠-
♥AQJxxxx
♦Q10x
♣ Kxx

♠AKQxxx
♥ -
♦xxx
♣ AJxx

They are an accurate reflection of the bidding given. The partnership has 26 points but the hand is a total misfit(!)
No game can be made in either hearts or spades and to bid 3NT on these hands is to go down among the dead men.
Experience has shown time and again that misfits should be played as at low a level as possible.