[WesleyC]

IMPs with an expert but old-school partner.

---

Partner's pass over the redouble is scrambling, but you haven't discussed the continuations.

What kind of hand do you expect for 3S?

Do you pass or bid 4S?

Cheers,

WesC

[gszes]

probably 44 in the majors and probably both crummy suits
also Jxxx Jxxx xxx Ax or some such

[Fluffy]

I disagree with double, redouble and East's pass on the first round of bidding, 1♦ I am not sure yet.

Answering your quesion I don't even dream of bidding 4♠.

[WesleyC]

Fluffy, on 2013-August-01, 13:52, said:

I disagree with double, redouble and East's pass on the first round of bidding, 1♦ I am not sure yet.

Answering your quesion I don't even dream of bidding 4♠.

lol, great response

Looking at the hand record, its hard to fault south's 1D.

What's your beef with West's double?

[Fluffy]

I always overcall with 5cM, its a style issue. Doubling tends to bury the 5-3 fit forever (which is your most likely 8 card fit), while the 4-4 ♥ fit can be found several ways afterwards.

[JLOGIC]

I expect partner wants to compete to 3S knowing that I have a takeout X with spades > hearts.

I really don't understand criticizing partners bidding without knowing his hand, this seems like a normal way to bid Axxx Qxxx xx Qxx type of hands. Another possible hand type is JTxx x xxx KQxxx.

I agree pretty strongly with doubling FWIW even though I think it is usually right to overcall your 5 card major, this seems like a textbook example of a hand not to if you ever won't.

[lycier]

Quote

Do you pass or bid 4S?

Of course，3♠ maybe likely be a pre-emptive raise,so pass is the only choice.

[the hog]

gszes, on 2013-August-01, 11:28, said:

probably 44 in the majors and probably both crummy suits
also Jxxx Jxxx xxx Ax or some such

This is an impossible hand.With this a 1S bid is clear. 1S rather than 1H, because if the bidding reverts to me at the 2 level, I will bid 2H.

[WesleyC]

the hog, on 2013-August-01, 22:09, said:

This is an impossible hand.With this a 1S bid is clear. 1S rather than 1H, because if the bidding reverts to me at the 2 level, I will bid 2H.

Its also an impossible hand because most of the high cards are already in your hand! However the nature of the hand was very close to what partner held at the table (JTxx xxxx Axx xx).

I can't see much advantage in bidding 1S as compared to simply passing 1D and then competing to the 2 level in whichever major partner bids. What do you see as the advantage of an immediate 1S?

Regarding the question of what type of hand partner should have to compete to the 3 level, i'm clearly on the wrong page and am probably being too conservative. Maybe t/o doubling style makes a difference here, I tend to double 1m on most 4333 13 counts for example. However Opposite a typical T/O double, I guess a competitive 3S isn't too unreasonable.

WesC

[JLOGIC]

Your partner had 3 diamonds so you cannot be 4333. Your most likely shape is 4315 from his point of view.

[the hog]

The advantages are showing 4S and coming in at a low leel. You are also involving partner in the decision making process. Seriously, passing on this is laughable.

[rsteele]

WesleyC, on 2013-August-01, 10:59, said:

IMPs with an expert but old-school partner.

---

Partner's pass over the redouble is scrambling, but you haven't discussed the continuations.

What kind of hand do you expect for 3S?

Do you pass or bid 4S?

Cheers,

WesC

[rsteele]

If you don't know what your pds bid means I certainly don't but I bid a confident 4 Spades as that has the higher upside at imps and I don't expect the opp trumps to be good enough to double.

[gszes]

the hog, on 2013-August-02, 19:53, said:

The advantages are showing 4S and coming in at a low leel. You are also involving partner in the decision making process. Seriously, passing on this is laughable.

The general concept of bidding over xx is mainly showing a preference with a hand like
xxxx xxxx xxx xx i will pass because I do not want us to end up in a 43 fit with this crud
when i can let p pick their major and we can settle in our best fit. Same principle applies
here while I am close to the top of a minimum hand my majors are so cruddy it makes no
sense to show a preference with 1s when I can pass and raise partner if they can bid
a major. Passing now and coming in later not only helps avoid a 43 major fit when 44
is available, we have enough stuff to back into the bidding if need be or (as in the
actual hand) raise p major to as high as the 3 level.

Bidding 1s now should at least have some reason for bidding other than I paid my entry
fee a hand similar to xxxxx Kxx xxx xx is a decent 1s bid because you have a strong
preference for spades vs anything else partner might bid.

[gszes]

the hog, on 2013-August-02, 19:53, said:

The advantages are showing 4S and coming in at a low leel. You are also involving partner in the decision making process. Seriously, passing on this is laughable.

The general concept of bidding over xx is mainly showing a preference with a hand like
xxxx xxxx xxx xx i will pass because I do not want us to end up in a 43 fit with this crud
when i can let p pick their major and we can settle in our best fit. Same principle applies
here while I am close to the top of a minimum hand my majors are so cruddy it makes no
sense to show a preference with 1s when I can pass and raise partner if they can bid
a major. Passing now and coming in later not only helps avoid a 43 major fit when 44
is available, we have enough stuff to back into the bidding if need be or (as in the
actual hand) raise p major to as high as the 3 level.

Bidding 1s now should at least have some reason for bidding other than I paid my entry
fee a hand similar to xxxxx Kxx xxx xx is a decent 1s bid because you have a strong
preference for spades vs anything else partner might bid.

[the hog]

Well in my opinion 2x4 card Majors and an Ace are certainly a reason for bidding. As I said, it is laughable to pass.

[WesleyC]

the hog, on 2013-August-03, 19:19, said:

The advantages are showing 4S and coming in at a low level. You are also involving partner in the decision making process. Seriously, passing on this is laughable.

If pass shows multiple places to play, surely that involves partner in the decision making process?
Also this hand will usually compete to at least the 2-Level, but passing might sometimes leaves you the option to change your mind.

For example if you pass the auction might develop:

(1D) X (XX) P
(P) 2C

or

(1D) X (XX) P
(P) 1S (X= Penalty)

Where you're happy to stop short of 2M.

[the hog]

The second auction is highly unlikely as I have 4-4Ms. The reason I bid 1S is because with the posted hand I am prepared to bid twice.
eg
(1D) X (XX) 1S
(P) P (2D) 2H

[Zelandakh]

In reading this, it occurs to me that if we have "a hand that always wants to compete to the 2 level" or "prepared to bid twice", it would be better to do it straight away. In this respect, it would be logical to use a cue bid for that, say "a weak hand with 4-5 hearts and 4 spades". What is the expert standard for this minor suit cue bid? It is surely not a strong hand since it practically requires someone to be psyching for that to come up. Similarly, with an invitational hand and both majors we could afford to pass initially and then advance with a raise, cue bid or double. I am not sure what is left. Perhaps there does not even need to be an expert standard any more given how few expert pairs play a power redouble these days.

[WesleyC]

Zelandakh, on 2013-August-05, 07:36, said:

In reading this, it occurs to me that if we have "a hand that always wants to compete to the 2 level" or "prepared to bid twice", it would be better to do it straight away. In this respect, it would be logical to use a cue bid for that, say "a weak hand with 4-5 hearts and 4 spades". What is the expert standard for this minor suit cue bid? It is surely not a strong hand since it practically requires someone to be psyching for that to come up. Similarly, with an invitational hand and both majors we could afford to pass initially and then advance with a raise, cue bid or double. I am not sure what is left. Perhaps there does not even need to be an expert standard any more given how few expert pairs play a power redouble these days.

Certainly with a hands like [Qxxx Kxxxx xxx x] [Kxxxx Qxxx xxx x] I would always jump to 2S/2H over the double to put maximum pressure on the opponents so it makes sense for 2D to have a similar meaning of both majors, competitive.