[billw55]

 hrothgar, on 2013-August-07, 08:34, said:

Indonesia should receive a "death sentence". No right to host WBF events for <foo> years. No right to enter teams in WBF competitions for <bar> years.

Agree with the former, but the latter punishes the players, who are not at fault.

[PeterAlan]

I happen to have been browsing the corresponding thread in Bridgewinners (Bridgewinners), where her husband has recently posted:

Pietro Campanile said:

Migry is currently in Atlanta and getting ready to play, but as far as we know her visa is still pending. She was informed that her visa application could not be approved by the Indonesian consulate in New York. Therefore George Jacobs, on behalf of the USBF, solicited the help of the president of the WBF who in turn managed to get the Indonesian Bridge Federation involved. Currently her visa application lies with the Indonesian Consulate in Singapore and she fervently hopes that it will be approved shortly so that she can compete in Bali.

which suggests that the position is not necessarily quite as clear-cut a refusal as hrothgar's post suggests - more that the local consulate was not in a position to authorise it.

[diana_eva]

Migry herself posted this on FB:

Quote

Thank you all for the support re visa to Indonesia. However I have not been denied one, still waiting and hoping everything will be okay. I know a lot of people are working hard for that.

[jdeegan]

It is not too late for the US (and perhaps other) teams to withdraw and join the Mind Games in China. See what I meant, earlier. You give in to extortion one time, and it just keeps on coming.

[BillHiggin]

 jdeegan, on 2013-August-07, 15:44, said:

It is not too late for the US (and perhaps other) teams to withdraw and join the Mind Games in China. See what I meant, earlier. You give in to extortion one time, and it just keeps on coming.

There have been several versions of the events leading to the Israeli women's team withdrawal. Not a single one of which would properly be called extortion.
Certainly, the current situation with regard to Migry is no where close to extortion.

But, in the interests of proper internet flame wars, we should never allow mere facts to interfere with out rhetoric!

[jonottawa]

The only side I see making demands and threatening consequences (isn't that what we mean by extortion) is the 'give Israel whatever the hell they want' side. And yeah, avoiding bad precedents is why this is a fight worth having.

For example, here's Warren Spector: "We need all the teams in the US, open, women's, seniors, to refuse to go. Maybe our Canadian friends will join the protest. Add the Israeli's and a couple teams from Europe and we've destroyed the event in Bali. It's time to stand up and be counted: let's show some solidarity in response to this outrageous act."

(Emphasis mine.)

[jdeegan]

Would BBO consider blocking all Indonesian IP addresses? Imho, the world bridge community needs to fight back and to start trying to protect its own.

[jdeegan]

 billw55, on 2013-August-07, 10:17, said:

Agree with the former, but the latter punishes the players, who are not at fault.

Yeah. Just good Germans.

[ArtK78]

 jonottawa, on 2013-August-07, 16:56, said:

The only side I see making demands and threatening consequences (isn't that what we mean by extortion) is the 'give Israel whatever the hell they want' side. And yeah, avoiding bad precedents is why this is a fight worth having.

For example, here's Warren Spector: "We need all the teams in the US, open, women's, seniors, to refuse to go. Maybe our Canadian friends will join the protest. Add the Israeli's and a couple teams from Europe and we've destroyed the event in Bali. It's time to stand up and be counted: let's show some solidarity in response to this outrageous act."

(Emphasis mine.)

Warren Spector is right.

There is only one side that put roadblocks in the way of Israel's participation in the event. There is only one side that is putting roadblocks in the way of Migry's participation in the event. And those roadblocks have nothing to do with anything but nationality (I could say religion, but that is less clear).

There is a long history of countries refusing to play against Israel in the World Championships and the WBF doing nothing about it. At what point will the WBF finally say enough is enough?

It is too late to avoid bad precedents. There are years of bad precedents. It is now time to change those precedents.

[PhilKing]

One of the problems is that very few countries have rich enough bridge federations to fund the absurd WBF gravy train. If they start saying no to dodgy quasi-dictatorships, they will have to cut back on first class travel and five-star accommodation and dining for all WBF executives and their partners, which are currently paid for by the host city.

[Trinidad]

Correct me if I am wrong (I probably am). But isn't Migry living in Israel?

It is quite common that you need to go to the embassy/consulate in your country of residence (or -if there is no consulate or embassy- to the agreed representative) to obtain a visa. If Migry indeed lives in Israel it is not surprising if a visa application at the Indonesian consulate in New York takes longer than normal (i.e. a visa application for an American resident or citizen).

That has nothing to do with Israel. If I would go to the Indonesian consulate in New York, it would probably also be (more) difficult for me to get a visa.

Rik

[ArtK78]

 Trinidad, on 2013-August-08, 06:34, said:

Correct me if I am wrong (I probably am). But isn't Migry living in Israel?

It is quite common that you need to go to the embassy/consulate in your country of residence (or -if there is no consulate or embassy- to the agreed representative) to obtain a visa. If Migry indeed lives in Israel it is not surprising if a visa application at the Indonesian consulate in New York takes longer than normal (i.e. a visa application for an American resident or citizen).

That has nothing to do with Israel. If I would go to the Indonesian consulate in New York, it would probably also be (more) difficult for me to get a visa.

Rik

Right. Just a coincidence. No doubt the same thing would have happened if she had a British passport.

No doubt.

[hrothgar]

 ArtK78, on 2013-August-08, 06:42, said:

Right. Just a coincidence. No doubt the same thing would have happened if she had a British passport.

Probably not. Israel and Indonesia don't have established diplomatic relations.

With this said and done, Indonesia was willing to grant entrance visas to the Israeli team.
I fully expect that Migry will be able to get an entry visa as well.

There will be a couple extra hoops to jump through, but this is far from uncommon...

[ArtK78]

 hrothgar, on 2013-August-08, 07:06, said:

There will be a couple extra hoops to jump through, but this is far from uncommon...

And what is your basis for that statement?

[jonottawa]

It's sad that some people only seem to care (or at least care enough to raise a ruckus) when it's Israel that is affected. If some other country is affected, we get crickets. People whose attitude is (or seems to be) 'As long as I'm okay, screw everybody else' don't deserve much sympathy imo. That being said, on visas, Indonesia seems to be as good a host as most. If there is a little extra red tape for this country or that country, that's far preferable to having the US host and having people being flatly turned away in significant numbers.

I'm still curious whether the English ladies are going to end up getting shafted or not. It's nice to see that thread on BW gaining so much steam (oh wait, there is no such thread.) Any news on that front?

[Trinidad]

 ArtK78, on 2013-August-08, 07:10, said:

And what is your basis for that statement?

I don't know where you are coming from or where you are planning to travel to. But it is quite common that you need to jump through a couple of hoops to get a visa (to any country) to begin with. Getting the visa from a third country will often require some extra hoops to jump through.

There is a reason why there are agencies whose only business is to apply for visas for profit.

I don't think you realize that as a US citizen you are pretty lucky: You will get a visa for most countries fairly easily (if you need one to begin with). This is not normal, don't take it for granted.

Rik

[helene_t]

 jonottawa, on 2013-August-08, 07:17, said:

It's sad that some people only seem to care (or at least care enough to raise a ruckus) when it's Israel that is affected. If some other country is affected, we get crickets.

I dunno. How often does it happen that some other country is prevented from participating in sports events for political reasons? OK, South Africa under Apartheid, and Yugoslavia was once excluded from a football EC when the country had de facto ceased to exist. But if the Falkland issue somehow prevented UK teams from playing in South America or Argentinian teams from playing in Europe I think it would make a few BBF'ers angry as well.

[rwbarton]

 ArtK78, on 2013-August-08, 07:10, said:

And what is your basis for that statement?

I cannot imagine you really believe that it is equally easy for a citizen of any country to enter any other country, but anyways here is an example: this page indicates that there are special requirements for Indonesian or Malaysian citizens to obtain a visa for entry into Israel.

[jonottawa]

 helene_t, on 2013-August-08, 07:33, said:

I dunno. How often does it happen that some other country is prevented from participating in sports events for political reasons? OK, South Africa under Apartheid, and Yugoslavia was once excluded from a football EC when the country had de facto ceased to exist. But if the Falkland issue somehow prevented UK teams from playing in South America or Argentinian teams from playing in Europe I think it would make a few BBF'ers angry as well.

It apparently happened to a couple of dozen people (from primarily muslim nations?) when the WC was in Philadelphia and will surely happen again the next time the US hosts the WC, no?

I think an in-depth discussion of the way Israel is perceived in the world and the reasons for that is too hot a topic for this forum (at least it is for this poster) but I'll just say that imo the South Africa comparison is a much closer fit than the Falklands (<3,000 people live there) comparison.

[jdeegan]

From the Australian Government - Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

This Advice was last issued on Friday, 24 May 2013.
It contains new information in the Summary and under Safety and Security:
Terrorism (in May 2013 police disrupted terrorist groups in West and Central Java). It also contains minor changes and editorial amendments throughout.

We advise you to exercise a high degree of caution in Indonesia, including Bali, at this time due to the high threat of terrorist attack. You should also be aware of the severe penalties for narcotics offences, including the death penalty; some specific health risks; and risks associated with natural disasters.

• Pay close attention to your personal security at all times and monitor the media for information about possible new safety or security risks.

• We continue to receive information that indicates that terrorists may be planning attacks in Indonesia, which could take place at any time.

• Terrorist groups remain active throughout Indonesia despite police disruptions. Police continue to conduct operations against these groups and have stated publicly that terrorist suspects remaining at large may seek to attack Western targets.

• You should exercise particular caution around locations that have a low level of protective security and avoid places known to be possible terrorist targets. See the Safety and security section of this advice for details.

• Terrorists have previously attacked or planned to attack places where Westerners gather, including nightclubs, bars, restaurants, international hotels, airports and places of worship in Bali, Jakarta and elsewhere in Indonesia. These types of venues could be targeted again.

• Australians should avoid all protests, demonstrations and rallies as they can turn violent.

• Indonesia is subject to a range of natural disasters including volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis and floods. You should pay close attention to emergency procedures and monitor local warnings.

• Visitors to Indonesia, particularly to tourist locations such as Bali and Lombok, should be aware of the specific risks from crime, and from drink-spiking and consumption of alcohol adulterated with harmful substances such as methanol. Tourists may also be exposed to scams and credit card/ATM fraud (see under Crime for more information).

• Petty crime, such as opportunistic theft, is common in Indonesia. Thieves on motorcycles may snatch handbags and backpacks from pedestrians. Tourists may be exposed to scams and confidence tricks in Indonesia. Legal disputes are common regarding the purchase of real estate including land, houses, holiday clubs and time share schemes.

• You should exercise normal beach safety behaviour and consider carefully the risks involved in using motorcycles, including licence and insurance issues (see under Local travel for more information).

• Visitors should be aware that there is a risk of rabies throughout Indonesia, in particular Bali and Nias. See under Health for advice to Australians travelling to or resident in Indonesia.

• We advise you to reconsider your need to travel to Central Sulawesi, Maluku, Papua and West Papua provinces where additional safety and security risks exist. Since October 2012, a number of violent incidents have been reported in Poso, Central Sulawesi.

• Since July 2009, there has been a series of violent attacks in the area around the Freeport Mine in Papua province. A number of these incidents have resulted in deaths, including of one Australian. Attacks were reported in the area in March and April 2013. Further such attacks could occur. Information indicates that attacks may be planned near the area of operation of the Freeport mine.

• Ongoing violence in Puncak Jaya District in Papua Province has led to a number of deaths in recent years, including most recently in February 2013 in Tingginambut and Sinak. There is a possibility of further attacks in Papua and West Papua provinces, including attacks on infrastructure and national institutions.

• You should telephone ahead for an appointment before going to the Australian Embassy (See Where to get help section).

• Because of the high threat of terrorist attack in Indonesia we strongly recommend that you register your travel and contact details with us so we can contact you in an emergency.

• Be a smart traveller. Before heading overseas: ◦ organise comprehensive travel insurance and check what circumstances and activities are not covered by your policy

◦subscribe to this travel advice to receive free email updates each time it's reissued.



Just in case you missed it on the news, other terrorist activity in Bali:
2002 over 200 dead
2005 over 20 dead
2011 threat warning
2012 planned attack narrowly averted