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Unalerted double (EBU)

#21 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 09:30

View PostVixTD, on 2013-February-19, 08:22, said:

South might take this out into spades, but he's not likely to stay there if he does, so I thought West would likely have to make a decision over a 4 bid. He might bid 4, but bearing in mind that East preferred to defend 3X than bid game in hearts on the last round, he might also decide to defend. Finally, if he does bid 4, how likely is he to make it? Deep Finesse says he can make ten tricks, but I can't see how. Some of the players I asked thought it might make, but I didn't get a very convincing line of play from them. The adjustment I eventually came up with was:

Lose 1 club and 2 spades. The hearts can be picked up by running the 10 -- if North covers you get back to dummy and finesse the 7.

Whether East will find that play at the table is questionable, though. South bid, so declarer may choose to play him for the Q and finesse the wrong way.

#22 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 09:44

You misunderstand how the EBU alerting rules work agua. You do not alert because the meaning of a double is unusual but because it does not have the non-alertable meaning. The non-alertable meaning for a double of a natural suit bid is takeout; anything else is alertable no matter how normal or obvious you may find it.
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#23 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 09:59

View Postaguahombre, on 2013-February-19, 09:11, said:

Just out of curiosity: If 2 were not a 2-suited convention, but merely a mundane weak two, would EBU TD's entertain an adjustment at all?

True, the EBU rules on alerting doubles are what they are. But opposite a one-suited preempt with an intervening bid, double is penalty, rather than asking opener to bid a suit he doesn't have; and it would be a joke for the NOS to claim damage on a failure to alert.

[Warning: I am not a TD, merely the other forum regular VixTD kindly claimed he was "fortunate" to be able to consult.]

However, I don't see any reason why EBU TDs shouldn't consider a adjustment if the opening bid was a mundane weak two. I agree that I would expect double to be played as penalty, in that case. And I appreciate that players are expected to protect themselves when possible if they recognise that the implied meaning of a call is inherently unlikely. But if N doesn't actually consider the likelihood that it was a penalty double, is that her fault for not recognising that a penalty double is normal here, or East's fault for not alerting it?
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#24 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 10:03

View Postbarmar, on 2013-February-19, 09:30, said:

Lose 1 club and 2 spades. The hearts can be picked up by running the 10 -- if North covers you get back to dummy and finesse the 7.

I'm not sure it is as simple as that, barmar. It is true you can pick up the trumps this way, but there is also a significant danger of losing control, particularly if the defence start with clubs. I suspect the winning line is to start on the spades and only work on the trumps later, but would declarer do that in practice given the dangers of a spade ruff if the suit doesn't break 3-3?
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#25 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 10:14

View PostZelandakh, on 2013-February-18, 09:28, said:

In EBUland, if you have no agreement about a call but you are going to treat it as if it has a meaning that would be alertable, or even that it may have such a meaning, then you alert. This is explicitly mentioned in one of the L&E books.

Yes, in the Orange Book in fact:

5 B 10 A player who is not sure whether a call made is alertable, but who is going to act as though it is, should alert the call, as the partnership is likely to be considered to have an agreement, especially if the player's partner's actions are also consistent with that agreement.

It is clear that East was intending to treat it as penalties, therefore alertable, and should have alerted. Even if it was a pure weak two, the same rule applies. If East had alerted, North (says she) would have bid, and there is no obligation on North to ask here, as I think the correct method is "pass if your second suit is diamonds" but "penalties" is another method. Both are alertable.

And in response to paulg there is no requirement to alert an undiscussed bid. It is only if you intend to treat it as having an alertable meaning that you alert. East would only fail to alert here if he intended to treat the double as takeout. And I would expect a competent player to make 4H, after a 3D overcall. Even though one cannot apply vacant spaces fully (as South looked at his hand before bidding) North is favourite to have heart length AND you can pick up Q8xx or Q9xx with him.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#26 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 10:18

That may be right. This is certainly a hand where I would be very impressed if declarer found the correct DD line.

#27 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 10:22

View PostWellSpyder, on 2013-February-19, 10:03, said:

I'm not sure it is as simple as that, barmar. It is true you can pick up the trumps this way, but there is also a significant danger of losing control, particularly if the defence start with clubs. I suspect the winning line is to start on the spades and only work on the trumps later, but would declarer do that in practice given the dangers of a spade ruff if the suit doesn't break 3-3?

As long as the declarer reverts to spades after discovering the 4-1 heart break there is no problem. Win club, cash king of hearts, run 10, then on to spades. You need spades 3-3 anyway or they beat you with a spade ruff. If the defence keep playing clubs, you ruff one in dummy with the 3, pitching a diamond from East. Now you can use a top diamond as a trump substitute.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#28 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 10:31

View PostVixTD, on 2013-February-19, 08:22, said:

The adjustment I eventually came up with was:

40% 3X(S)-2
20% 4X(S)-1
20% 4(E)-1
20% (E)=

In retrospect I think I was generous to NS in allowing them to redouble quite so often, and I redressed the balance by allowing West to make 4 as much as half the time.

A pretty good effort, and I agree that redouble is hardly automatic on the North hand, but then if she often faces 3D overcalls as bad as this (what on earth was wrong with double?) she might need to rescue this particular partner more!
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#29 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 13:36

North played you.

The idea that they would run is a joke.
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#30 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 17:05

View PostVixTD, on 2013-February-19, 08:22, said:

I answered the director call, and fortunately had another regular from this forum on the opposing team to consult during the break.

We decided that East had a duty to alert the double even though he had no agreement, as the action he took was consistent with ascribing it an alertable meaning. The lack of alert constituted misinformation to NS.

North had been very insistent immediately after the hand had been played out that she would have redoubled. I know this is not proof that she would have done, and she could have been pulling the wool over my eyes, but even though I couldn't find much enthusiasm for the call among players I consulted, it's the sort of thing some players do, and one or two players thought it was a possible action, so I ruled that she might redouble about half of the time.

South might take this out into spades, but he's not likely to stay there if he does, so I thought West would likely have to make a decision over a 4 bid. He might bid 4, but bearing in mind that East preferred to defend 3X than bid game in hearts on the last round, he might also decide to defend. Finally, if he does bid 4, how likely is he to make it? Deep Finesse says he can make ten tricks, but I can't see how. Some of the players I asked thought it might make, but I didn't get a very convincing line of play from them. The adjustment I eventually came up with was:

40% 3X(S)-2
20% 4X(S)-1
20% 4(E)-1
20% (E)=

In retrospect I think I was generous to NS in allowing them to redouble quite so often, and I redressed the balance by allowing West to make 4 as much as half the time.


In MI cases, sometimes when a player of the non-offending side says: "I would have done XYZ had the opponents alerted/explained differently" it would be more accurate for him to say "I wish I had done XYZ" or "If I had known all four hands I would have done XYZ".

Whilst players do sometimes take strange actions at the table, it's always a dilemma for a TD when a player claims that he would have taken an implausible action. Is the player making this up, or does he really bid like this?

In this particular case, I would like to consider some more basic questions.

1. What was the infraction?

The infraction was the failure to alert, as apparently required by the dubiously worded Orange Book 5B10 regulation.

2. What would/might have happened, had the infraction not occurred?

If East had alerted the double, this would have prompted North (assuming he was considering acting at all) to ask about the meaning of the double. He would have been told "no agreement". Hence any putative adjusted score should be on the basis of North assuming that E/W have no agreement about the double, not on the basis that it was agreed to be penalties.
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#31 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 20:50

View Postjallerton, on 2013-February-19, 17:05, said:

The infraction was the failure to alert, as apparently required by the dubiously worded Orange Book 5B10 regulation.


Do you dislike this regulation? I think it makes sense.
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#32 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 20:52

View PostVixTD, on 2013-February-19, 08:22, said:

I answered the director call, and fortunately had another regular from this forum on the opposing team to consult during the break.


Did you really consult with a player whose team was affected by the ruling? LOL
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#33 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 21:26

View PostVampyr, on 2013-February-19, 20:50, said:

Do you dislike this regulation? I think it makes sense.

Unfortunately, you yourself illustrate why the regulation does not make sense. You said very early on (in this thread) that a call should have only one unalerted meaning.

Let's see.

1C (P) 1H (1S)
X

Support double?
Extended negative?
Snapdragon?

The double has several possible meanings ---all unalerted except Penalty. Lumping all doubles which are not penalty into "takeout" is a joke.

1N (2D) X.

Transfer?
Major suits?
non descript invite +

All unalerted under the blanket of "Takeout"?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#34 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 22:02

This was not the regulation Jeffrey was referring to, but I do think that this one is also sensible, in large part because it is simple to explain and apply.

View Postaguahombre, on 2013-February-19, 21:26, said:


1C (P) 1H (1S)
X

Support double?
Extended negative?
Snapdragon?

The double has several possible meanings ---all unalerted except Penalty. Lumping all doubles which are not penalty into "takeout" is a joke.


These doubles are all alertable, with the possible exception of your second example. I would have to know a bit more about what the "extended negative" double shows before I could tell you.

Quote

1N (2D) X.

Transfer?
Major suits?
non descript invite +

All unalerted under the blanket of "Takeout"?


No. These are also alertable.

The description of "takeout double" is a little vague in the Orange Book since it tries to define the term in the context of a variety of auctions. But I think most people know what a takeout double is, and your examples are not takeout doubles. If you had included "short in diamonds, support for the other suits and the values to compete", then that would be a takeout double and not alerted.
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#35 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 22:14

One thing seems certain..I don't understand the EBU regulations per the alertability of doubles. So, if only to me, they don't make sense. It seems to me that the precept is "If you are going to have the audacity to try and penalize opponents' bidding, you had better alert." Of course in these cases it is too late for them to do anything about it; so, perhaps EBU should make penalty doubles a pre-alert.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#36 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 22:26

View Postaguahombre, on 2013-February-19, 22:14, said:

One thing seems certain..I don't understand the EBU regulations per the alertability of doubles. So, if only to me, they don't make sense.


I don't know why you are having trouble. Here is the regulation:

Quote

5 E 2 Doubles
The rules for alerting doubles are:
(a) Suit bids that show the suit bid.
Double of these bids is not alertable if for take-out; alertable otherwise.
(b) Short, Nebulous, Prepared and Phoney minor openings.
Double of these bids is not alertable if for take-out; alertable otherwise.
© No trump bids.
Double of these bids is not alertable if for penalties; alertable otherwise.
(d) Suit bids that do not show the suit bid.
Double of these bids is not alertable if showing the suit doubled; alertable
otherwise.
Doubles are also alertable if they convey a potentially unexpected meaning in addition
to take-out or penalties as defined above.
In 5E2(a) and 5E2(d) the word ‘show’ is defined as follows:
‘it is natural, or shows willingness, in the context of the auction, to play in the suit, or it
is followed by two passes’.


Another regulation goes into further details to explain slightly unusual auctions, but it does not violate the above precepts.

Maybe you hadn't actually read the regulation and thought that (a) above read: "Double of these bids is alertable if for penalties; non-alertable otherwise"?

Takeout and penalty are not the only two types of doubles.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#37 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 23:16

O.K. Now it makes sense.

2S (3D) X

1N (3S) X

We should alert the opponents that they are going down, so next hand won't raise causing them to go down more.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#38 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-February-19, 23:49

View Postaguahombre, on 2013-February-19, 23:16, said:

O.K. Now it makes sense.

2S (3D) X

1N (3S) X

We should alert the opponents that they are going down, so next hand won't raise causing them to go down more.


If you are playing these doubles as penalty or as anything other than takeout, then yes, they are alertable.
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#39 User is offline   Lanor Fow 

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Posted 2013-February-20, 03:31

View Postaguahombre, on 2013-February-19, 23:16, said:

O.K. Now it makes sense.

2S (3D) X

1N (3S) X

We should alert the opponents that they are going down, so next hand won't raise causing them to go down more.


I'm taking this post as containing no sarcasm, as I'm sure you wouldn't suggest hiding agreements from opposition to try and get them to a worse place, or an alert system that deliberatly makes it unclear, to help get them to a worse place.
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#40 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2013-February-20, 03:37

View PostVampyr, on 2013-February-19, 20:52, said:

Did you really consult with a player whose team was affected by the ruling? LOL

What else do you suggest, when everybody at the match is in one team or the other (including VixTD)? As it happens, I had no idea which side was which when I was given the hand, since it happened at the other end of the room. (Each county has 3 teams of 8 involved in the match, so it is not the same as a simple teams of 4 match where it is pretty unlikely that you won't know which team is playing EW and which NS at the table in question.)
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