[aguahombre]

 ArtK78, on 2012-September-27, 10:39, said:

Furthermore, with 5 hearts and 4 spades and a weak hand, responder might have doubled to show both majors. He is more likely to bid spades with 5 spades and 4 hearts since he will be able to bid again to show hearts without increasing the level of the auction. Even then, he might have doubled 1♦ with 5-4 in the majors (in either order) and a weak hand fearing that he needs to be able to show both suits immediately.

Whether or not the practice is flawed, for the reasons you addressed in the rest of your post, a great many pairs are not able to use that premise. The double of a 1♦ overcall is used by them (us) to show exactly 4-4 in the majors. This affects the strength requirements and expectations when opener rebids two of the other major. (Notice I am not using the "R" word).

[Phil]

LOL late to this thread. I feel like I've been teleported to some of the silly 'arguments' that take place on RGB.

[MrAce]

 gwnn, on 2012-September-27, 07:23, said:

Maybe I'm wrong about this but I think it's common to bid 1S with 5S/4H hands even if they're minimum. If you play it that way (I guess you don't), then we might get shut out after something like 1C-1D-1S-2D; p-3D-p-p.

Yes it is common to bid 1♠ with 5♠+4♥, but that doesnt give you free pass to bid your pds hand for him and make a non economical bid when you dont have the values, since you are not in the pass out seat, you are in live auction. Assume your pd had 5-4 majors and you passed and 2♦ went to your pd, why do we assume pd will pass out their fit at 2 level ? He can easily bid 2♥ for competitive puposes and he can always DBL with better hands and 5-4 M

[gwnn]

 MrAce, on 2012-September-27, 17:47, said:

Yes it is common to bid 1♠ with 5♠+4♥, but that doesnt give you free pass to bid your pds hand for him and make a non economical bid when you dont have the values, since you are not in the pass out seat, you are in live auction. Assume your pd had 5-4 majors and you passed and 2♦ went to your pd, why do we assume pd will pass out their fit at 2 level ? He can easily bid 2♥ for competitive puposes and he can always DBL with better hands and 5-4 M

I said something about maybe bidding 2H with a jack or so less and not 'substantially less than a reverse' (that was Art, go argue with him). Also I specifically made overcaller raise to 3D and not pass (Codo asked for a scenario where reversing light would be helpful so I gave one -I didnt say it always wins or whatever). Really Timo I worded my posts quite carefully, please read them again and don't put words in my mouth.

This post has been edited by gwnn: 2012-September-27, 23:42

[Zelandakh]

I hear it often here that it is common not to double with 5-4 in the majors after 1♣ - (1♦) and I honestly do not understand it at all. Double is our cheapest and most flexible call and we already chose to use it for a comparatively uncommon hand type (both majors) because we feel this is important. So why restrict it even further? I think it is more useful for Double to show both majors with no more than a 1 card difference between them. If Double is restricted practically only to 4-4 hands then it is surely much better simply to keep the Transfer Walsh structure with Double showing hearts. At least it gets a reasonable frequency that way.

[MrAce]

 gwnn, on 2012-September-27, 23:37, said:

I said something about maybe bidding 2H with a jack or so less and not 'substantially less than a reverse' (that was Art, go argue with him). Also I specifically made overcaller raise to 3D and not pass (Codo asked for a scenario where reversing light would be helpful so I gave one -I didnt say it always wins or whatever). Really Timo I worded my posts quite carefully, please read them again and don't put words in my mouth.

Sorry i midread it i guess. I think what i did wrong was reading your post and Arts and then tried to response both but only quoted you