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What do you bid? A negative double...

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 18:23

Teams, all red:

♠AKQx
♥xx
♦AJxx
♣KQx

1♦-(2♥)-X-(3♥)
???

What's your call?

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 18:33

I will try 5s
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#3 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 18:59

4S
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 19:58

I opened 2NT. But, if I grabbed the wrong card or misclicked, I now bid 4S.
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#5 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 20:39

4♠
--Ben--

#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 22:45

I vote that we just establish 18-20 as the opening 2NT range for these fora. Since that hasn't happened yet, 4S seems fine; not looking for the perfect hand where partner can't advance but we make slam.
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#7 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2012-July-11, 23:37

I vote 'Nay' for 18-20 HCP as 2NT, but 'Yay' to 4♠.
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#8 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 00:51

The key is that pard made the negative double, so can't be completely bereft of values.

I'm bidding 4 ♠.
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#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 01:40

View Postrmnka447, on 2012-July-12, 00:51, said:

The key is that pard made the negative double, so can't be completely bereft of values.

I'm bidding 4 ♠.

?? That would be a key if we were contemplating a pass. Here, the decision is whether to try for slam or just bid 4S. Pard has enough values for the 3-level.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#10 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 05:05

I think 4♥ showing a good raise to 4♠ is fine. It's not like partner will make some crazy jump to a bad slam when he is off AKQ of trumps anyway.
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#11 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 05:20

4S seems practical. I might try X followed by bidding spades, but the X might get passed :(

ahydra
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#12 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 07:19

What's the minimum for partner's double at this Vulnerability and against this pre-emptive jump?

Wouldn't 4♥ show a ♥ control?

I thought 5♠ would be unanimous.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#13 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 07:50

4♥ absolutely doesn't show a heart control, it just shows a slam invite. Why should you have to get to 5♠ every time partner is rejecting and go down there when some suit doesn't break or there is a ruff or something? And what if partner has heart control but you still don't have slam, JTxx Ax KQxx xxx or something? It's not all about a heart control, we don't even know if we have slam values yet.
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#14 User is offline   dkham 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 08:02

4♠.
For this particular hand it would be nice if 4♥ was a general force, but I reckon it shows a heart control. Also partner could be fairly weak with four spades for his double, so not going to the five level.

Would be surprised if slam is on and partner can't bid again.
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#15 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 08:20

For the 5♠ bidders - are you bidding 5♠ as a general slam invite, or requesting partner to bid 6♠ if he has second-round heart control? If the latter, how do you know that second-round heart control is enough to make slam a good bet?

I bid 4♥ as a big hand with a spade fit. I don't believe it promises a heart control on this auction.
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 08:29

View Postlalldonn, on 2012-July-12, 07:50, said:

4♥ absolutely doesn't show a heart control, it just shows a slam invite. Why should you have to get to 5♠ every time partner is rejecting and go down there when some suit doesn't break or there is a ruff or something?

Or even when there are just three unavoidable losers. Partner could have J10xxx xx Qxx AJx.

I'm very surprised that so many people expect 4♥ to promise heart control - I thought people stopped playing that in about 1975. We have only one slam-try below game and partner is unlimited, so it's obviously impractical to have 4♥ promise some specific heart holding.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#17 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 09:29

View PostHanoi5, on 2012-July-12, 07:19, said:

What's the minimum for partner's double at this Vulnerability and against this pre-emptive jump?

About 8/9 HCP I would have thought.

View PostArtK78, on 2012-July-12, 08:20, said:

For the 5♠ bidders - are you bidding 5♠ as a general slam invite, or requesting partner to bid 6♠ if he has second-round heart control? If the latter, how do you know that second-round heart control is enough to make slam a good bet?

For me 5♠ asks for slam with 2nd round ♥ control.

I'm not sure it's enough though, so I prefer 4♥ to show a better hand than I would have bid 4♠ with.
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#18 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 12:10

there are a huge number of more distributional (and weaker) hands
that qualify to bid 4s (AQxx xxx AKxxxx void). It seems a shame we
cannot easily show our dynamite 19 power pack or can we??????????

Last train 4h qualifies to show this type of hand but I am not certain
it is useable here since we do not have an agreed trump suit. Does
4h really promise spades or can it be made with a huge hand with
long/strong diamonds??? (K xx AQJxxxx AKQ)

If we agree that last train can be used like this then responder must be
able to sign off in 4s (with no slam interest) and let p pass or take over
by either continuing to cue bid, 4n, or correct 4s to 5d. If this thought
is standard agreement forgive my diatribe and put me in the camp
with the 4h users.
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 12:33

I wouldn't think of 4♥ as last-train. It's a bid in the opponents' suit. Bids in the opponents' suit usually show support, for example:

1♥ (1♠) 2♠

1♥ (3♣) 4♣

(1♥) 1♠ (pass) 2♥

I agree that in this sequence 4♥ could possibly be a very strong hand with diamonds, but partner should assume it shows spades unless we convert 4♠ to 5♦, or jump to 6♦ over Keycard.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-July-12, 13:31

I don't think it's workable to play 4H as either a spade slam try or a good hand with diamonds.
I think if we have a good hand with diamonds we bid diamonds. Or (by agreement) we bid 4NT to show a good 5D bid.
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