[daveharty]

---

West deals; NV vs. V at matchpoints. Assuming you are playing Vanilla 2/1, can you suggest a realistic auction to the laydown grand?

[mike777]

2c=2d
2h=2nt
3h=4c
4s=5c
5s=5nt
?


2d=random a or k, gf
4c=cue, agree h
4s=rkc in h
5c=1
5s=sp k ask, grand try
5nt=ks

[Zelandakh]

1♥ - 1♠
3♣ - 3♥
4♦ - 4♠
4NT - 5♣
6♣ - 7NT

would do the trick, where 4♦ = slam try with 6+ hearts; 4♠ = RKCB; 4NT = 1 or 4; 6♣ = ♥Q and ♣Q with no side king. The (double-dummy) key is to make sure East does the asking. You can also get there if West asks, maybe, but it is difficult and probably involves bids that noone would make without agreements that go well beyond "Vanilla 2/1".

[TWO4BRIDGE]

2C - 2D
2H - 2NT
4D! ( self-splinter w/6+ cd Ht suit ) - 4S! ( kickback-RKC for Hts )
??
.. 4NT = 0/3
.. 5C = 1/4

after :
5C - 5D ( ♥Q-ask )
5NT ( ♥Q but NO outside K ) - 6C ( must be a ♣Q-ask )
6NT ( ♣Q ) - 7NT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
EDIT: The 5NT reply is technically incorrect on this hand. 5NT would show the ♥ Q AND the ♦ K ( NT shows the K-feature of the "asking suit" ).
But, because of the ♦-splinter, Opener can't have the ♦ K .

The correct reply for ♥Q and NO outside Kings is 6♥.
But Responder can now bid 7NT according to the logic in my post # 8 .

[Phil]

I wouldn't open 2♣, but that may be a function of the style of one of my partners.

1♥ - 2♣*
2♥ - 2♠
3♣ - 3♥
4♦ - 4♥
4♠** - 4N
5♦*** - 5♠
5N - 6♣
?

At this point, we know about 4-2 or 5-2 in the majors, the three Kings, but enough for a GF. 7N has to be right.

* haven't we all learned by now that responding 1♠ with these hands leads to tricky auctions?

** - Kickback
*** - Spec K's

[aguahombre]

 Phil, on 2012-May-18, 08:44, said:

I wouldn't open 2♣, but that may be a function of the style of one of my partners.

1♥ - 2♣*
2♥ - 2♠
3♣ - 3♥
4♦ - 4♥
4♠** - 4N
5♦*** - 5♠
5N - 6♣
?

At this point, we know about 4-2 or 5-2 in the majors, the three Kings, but enough for a GF. 7N has to be right.

* haven't we all learned by now that responding 1♠ with these hands leads to tricky auctions?

** - Kickback
*** - Spec K's

This seems to work. Also, if vanilla 2/1 means no J2N (or Kickback J2♠), we could get to a similar position when responder denies any diamond controls later, thus must have the other kings and a queen or both black jacks to get to her g.f. response.

1H-2N (nat)
3H-3S
4C-4H (4H=no diamond control)
4S-5C
Blast!

[kenrexford]

Whether to open 2♣ or 1♥ is a close call. But, assuming a 1♥ opening, my auction would be:

Opener: 1♥
Responder: 2♣ (same reason as Phil stated)
Opener: 2♥ (for me this shows six hearts)
Responder: 3♥ (no reason to muddy waters by bidding spades)
Opener: 3♠ (Ace, stiff, or void to Responder)
Responder: 4♥ (not serious, not two top clubs, no diamond control)
Opener: 4♠ (kickback)
Responder: 5♣ (I have the heart King)
Opener: 5♠ (kings?)
Responder: 5NT (spade King)
Opener: 6♣ (club King?)
Responder: 7♣ (yes, and useful club Jack, no diamond King, no spade Queen)
Opener: 7NT

Opener bids an agressive 6♣ as a grand invite because Responder, if holding the club Jack, will have shown up with enough for 12 tricks already. To have a GF hand, the worst possible holding would be these honors but some 4-3-3-3, or perhaps a stray diamond Queen in there, which will make the grand in a terrible place at least on some hook or squeeze., but most holdings make the contract laydown. The worst holding is 4-3-3-3 pattern, with the same honors but the Queen of diamonds alone instead of the two pointed Jacks, which is the death holding. But, if Responder has a death holding he should probably bid 6♦ over 6♣, or 6NT, depending on style.

Responder's 7♣ shgows the club Jack (he already denied two top clubs) and that the Jack is potrentially useful (4+ suit). It denies the spade Queen (would bid 6♠) and the diamond King (would bid the other of 6♦ or 6NT, dependoing on style).

Note: after 6♣, Responder should be able to bid either 6♦ or 6NT as grand last train to confirm the club King but to show hesitance, IMO.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 daveharty, on 2012-May-18, 06:28, said:

---

West deals; NV vs. V at matchpoints. Assuming you are playing Vanilla 2/1, can you suggest a realistic auction to the laydown grand?

One of the important bids on this hand to facilitate bidding the grand is the 4D! self-splinter ( my post #4 )- - Responder will know Opener does not have the ♦ K in the hcp count.

Responder can jump to 7NT after finding out that Opener has all 4 aces, the trump Q , and NO outside Kings.... That only adds up to 18 hcp.

Surely, Opener has at least ONE black Q ( if not both ) for his opening 2C. [ Responder has all of the Jacks .... so no hcp there for Opener ] .

Thus, no need for an outside Q-ask, and since he has K J x x in BOTH blacks :

6h + dA + A K Q J in one black + A K in the other black suit = 13

[Statto]

1♥ 1♠
3♣ 3♦ (4SF, extras)
3♠ 4♣
4♥ 4NT (RKCB)
5♦ (4 key cards) 5♠ (trump queen?)
5NT (yes but no kings) 7NT (punt)

or

2NT 6NT should score better than average

[the hog]

 Phil, on 2012-May-18, 08:44, said:

snipped


* haven't we all learned by now that responding 1♠ with these hands leads to tricky auctions?

No!. Haven't you shown 5+C and 4S with your first two bids? Then a stiff D with your third bid? That is what i would expect. I don't object to 2C IF you have a relay structure or if you have some agreements that allow you to show your shape properly.

2C 2D all positives
2H 2NT flat
3H 3S cue
4C 4H still forcing as 2D was sf. Denying D control.

Now opener can take charge.


Now opener can take charge

[masse24]

 Statto, on 2012-May-18, 21:36, said:

1♥ 1♠
3♣ 3♦ (4SF, extras)
3♠ 4♣
4♥ 4NT (RKCB)
5♦ (4 key cards) 5♠ (trump queen?)
5NT (yes but no kings) 7NT (punt)

or

2NT 6NT should score better than average

3♦ not necessary (as 4SF) since 3♣ is a GF.
Also, East hardly has "extras".

[Statto]

 masse24, on 2012-May-18, 22:37, said:

3♦ not necessary (as 4SF) since 3♣ is a GF.
Also, East hardly has "extras".

3♦ is a direction asking forcing bid, not natural. And East does have extras, quite a lot more than 1♠ promised.

[Phil]

 the hog, on 2012-May-18, 22:11, said:

No!. Haven't you shown 5+C and 4S with your first two bids?

No?

[the hog]

 Phil, on 2012-May-19, 11:18, said:

No?

Does this mean you have or you haven't. If the latter, how do you bid a 4315 hand. If the former, how do you distinguish between the 2 shapes. It seems to me that if you bid 2C without having specialised follow ups, you need to bis 2NT on the second round to show this balanced hand type.

[Cyberyeti]

To me, a 20 point hand which can be losing 6 tricks opposite a flat complete bust with 2 trumps with no bad breaks is not a 2♣ followed by a suit bid.

So I open 1♥.

I don't play 2/1 so can't suggest an auction, ours would go:

1♥-1♠
2N(gf unbalanced)-3♣(semi forced)
3♥(6+♥)-4♠(KC)
5♣(1/4)-5♦(Q♥ ?)
5N(yes, no side K, still interested in grand)-6♣(bid 7 with ♣K/Q)
7♥-7N (6+4+2+1=7N)

[daveharty]

Our own auction was no thing of beauty: 2♣-2♦(waiting, GF)-2♥-2NT-3NT-6NT. I was East and after partner's 3NT bid, I just couldn't figure out a reliable way of counting to 13. (Plus, as Statto mentions and is unfortunately true, I knew I was guaranteed a decent result for 6NT in this field.) Partner said after the fact that he was thinking his raise to 3NT showed six hearts, since he would have rebid 2NT initially with only five. I like Phil's auction, and Cyberyeti's, although we don't have the 2NT rebid toy available.

[Phil]

 the hog, on 2012-May-19, 18:20, said:

Does this mean you have or you haven't. If the latter, how do you bid a 4315 hand. If the former, how do you distinguish between the 2 shapes. It seems to me that if you bid 2C without having specialised follow ups, you need to bis 2NT on the second round to show this balanced hand type.

It means I have not shown five clubs. As a matter of fact I have not even shown four. Or three. By extension, 1M - two red (not a raise) shows at least five, so 2♣ is the systemic call on 3M-4♦-4oM-2♣ hands.

There might be a day soon when I respond two clubs to 1♥ with a 5=3=4=1. It hasn't happened yet.

[han]

Like Phil I start with 1H - 2C, but after 2H I would absolutely not rebid 2S but show my hand type by bidding 2NT:

1H - 2C
2H - 2NT
3C - 3H
...

So far the auction is obvious to me. Now opener could cue 4D to set hearts as trump, but I think that it is too unilateral as clubs might well play better. Opener should bid 3S which may still be looking for the best strain.

...
3S - 4H

With KJ of hearts, no 5-card club suit and no diamond stopper also seems clear. This bid is good news to opener, reponder probably does not have a lot of wasted points in diamonds.

4NT - 5C
5NT - 6C
6D - 6S
7NT

Opener can count 12 tricks opposite the 3 kings (if hearts split, he doesn't know about the heart jack). Responder has more HCP, and not too many of them are in diamonds. Either the spade queen of the club jack would immediately give 13, and the spade jack plus 4 clubs would also make the grand slam quite good. It may be right to bid the grand at IMPs, though it is harder and you'd bid 7H instead of 7NT.

[mikl_plkcc]

I don't think bidding grand at this hand is possible using any kind of natural system unless we can set up a game-forcing auction early can cue-bid the controls (see below). However, by using an artificial system, I can set trumps at the 3-level and immediately start cue-bidding:

1♣ (16+ any shape except 4441) - 1♦ (8+ positive)
1♥ (5+ ♥s) - 1♠ (4+ ♠s)
2♥ (6+ ♥s) - 3♥ (agree)
Now, opener's hand has suddenly upgraded due to the singleton. A slam becomes possible.
3♠ (1st round control) - 4♥ (I have no more control)
5♦ (2nd round control) - 5NT (trump ask)
6♥ (2 out of top 3 trumps) - 7♥ (all right, we have got everything needed for a grand!)

[Zelandakh]

 mikl_plkcc, on 2012-May-28, 05:36, said:

I don't think bidding grand at this hand is possible using any kind of natural system unless we can set up a game-forcing auction early can cue-bid the controls

See above for several natural auctions that can reach a grand here. If East does the asking it is fairly simple; if West then you probably need to take some inferences of the type Han described.

 mikl_plkcc, on 2012-May-28, 05:36, said:

(all right, we have got everything needed for a grand!)

Have we? In my opinion anyone posting a sequence to the grand should explain how either East knows about the ♣Q or West knows about the ♣J or can place enough figures and distribution to make grand good. My own (artificial) system uses the latter but (imho) it is clearer here than in han's auction.

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 2♥ = 4-5 spades, 2-3 hearts, bal, GF
2♠
... - 3♥ = 4234
3♠
... - 4♦ = extras, 3 controls
4♥
... - 5♣ = controls in both black suits but not diamonds
5♦
... - 5♠ = ♥K, no ♠Q
5NT
... - 6♣ = no ♣Q
6♦
... - 6♥ = no ♦Q
7NT

Opener can count Responder to have at least 3 jacks, which is enough. Despite this and mikl's implication that this is a good hand for artificial methods I personally think this hand could easily be better for a natural system in practise. The opponents have a 9 card diamond fit and few values. They are much more likely to come in over a strong 1♣ opening than over 1♥, even at these colours, and it seems unlikely that such intervention will be helpful here.